Official High Run - 14.1

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
Freddie, in your selective cut and paste, I think you missed the important part of what I said. Here it is:

"John is doing practice runs. If he breaks 768, I think he has the record."

I suggested nothing with rules of the game or that an actual game has to be part of the high run. Others seem to have suggested that, over many threads. The notion of official seems in the minds of some, to be announced, with an opponent, and with a big crowd, and documented, etc, etc. I said the opposite, that John's counts, if done. That's it. Please don't misconstrue.

All the best,
WW

I think it’s you that has misconstrued the question. I am talking specifically about what is the official run. If you don’t consider Mosconi’s 526 run as the official run, then this question isn’t for you. This question is specifically for those who point to Mosconi’s 526 run as the “official high run,” and therefore I’m asking what would be the current official 9 foot run. Whether or not John hits 768 has nothing to do with the current official 9’ high run.
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
First, there is a tournament high run.
Then, a tournament high run continued until a miss.
Then, an exhibition (against an opponent) high run.
Then, a practice high run verified by witnesses and/or video.
Then, a practice high run unverified.
Oh, add into the mix: played on a 10'. 9', or 8' table.
YIKES!

Thanks.

It's a difficult subject, and it's why Roger Maris was hated for breaking Babe's record. That's Ruth, Not Cranfield...Though Cranfield was married to a Ruth.

If you look at recent threads on this subject, there's a comfort level on those who want to protect Mosconi as the record holder of all time, an "official" exhibition, documented, etc.

Now that video is available, and John is making a mighty effort, they are a bit constipated, those who don't want the record to be broken. And, having watched Mosconi play, there's a part of me who would want his legacy to remain as well. But now there is video as opposed to a crowd who would sign a document.

And, the notion of "official" is somewhat vague, isn't it. It goes from witnessed by a crowd of people, documented, to something announced and done.

The problem is not to those who want to witness a great new record. The problem is with those who want to preserve an older record. The story of "official" seems to be evolving a bit.

All the best,
WW
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
I think it’s you that has misconstrued the question. I am talking specifically about what is the official run. If you don’t consider Mosconi’s 526 run as the official run, then this question isn’t for you. This question is specifically for those who point to Mosconi’s 526 run as the “official high run,” and therefore I’m asking what would be the current official 9 foot run. Whether or not John hits 768 has nothing to do with the current official 9’ high run.

I misconstrued nothing. I don't doubt the official high run is Mosconi's 526. I simply added a few footnotes that address other high runs, and the definition of an official exhibition. That's all.

All the best,
WW
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
It's tough for someone who does something without witnesses.

Only they know for sure.

100 is a real player, and 200 is a solid pro; in my book.....
 
Last edited:

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
distinctions

Willie's is an official record mainly because someone saw the value of documenting it with plenty of witnesses, 22 I think, but that is offhand. 28 seems like it might be right too, maybe both numbers are wrong. I am working purely from memory. The affidavit is available on the web for the curious. A bunch of witnesses regardless, including the site owner and the referee. I have to suspect that some of those witnesses perhaps went away from the table to buy a beer or to dispose of a few. When an affidavit was waved around and there was a chance of being a part of some pool history the signers all jumped at the opportunity. That isn't to say I doubt the count or that there was anything shady on the table, I just question the witnesses viewing every moment. Overlapping witness reports have been looked down on in other instances.

There is also the question of if Willie set the record on an eight foot table or a super eight, a bit bigger. People that were there have claimed both. Whatever, but when trying to establish records for certain sizes I would think it matters. While I don't think it should ever go in the record books I do believe the higher run that Charlie Ursetti witnessed happened even if I can't spell Charlie's last name. He has been around big time pool enough I can't think he would damage his reputation over something as unimportant as this.

Even an exhibition such as Mosconi and others traveled putting on added a level of pressure not there when if you get in a tight spot after running a dozen or so you just start over. Video certified practice deserves recognition I'm just not sure how to record it. If somebody breaks the record in their basement with it videoed does that deserve the same recognition as someone doing the same thing in a pool hall or other public location? Why or why not? We have entered a new era with video so readily available. There is very good video editing software that is simple to operate now. It wouldn't take that much effort for someone dreaming of glory to cheat on a video.

I have questions. I don't have all the answers by a long shot!

Hu
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
If I was Appleton, it would have pissed me off to have someone scatter the balls on the table when I was still going at it.

Although, I'm sure it got under Bustamante's skin to watch his opponent run 200 straight, and keep shooting. I wouldn't have stopped his run though. He owned the table, in my book.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
If I was Appleton, it would have pissed me off to have someone scatter the balls on the table when I was still going at it.

Although, I'm sure it got under Bustamante's skin to watch his opponent run 200 straight, and keep shooting. I wouldn't have stopped his run though. He owned the table, in my book.

Wow, I was there and was grateful that Bustamante did it. So, by the way, was Darren, who needed to unwind before the final. After losing the final, to Hohmann I think, he told me that his "200 and out was the worst thing that could have happened," that he was spent after it.

Would you really have held up the stream table to have the run completed when it was time for the finals of the event? Since when are runs in competition completed and why would a player feel inclined, let alone compelled to keep shooting? In my first 35 years around straight pool, I didn't see a game winning run in competition continued even once. I've since seen it twice, once from Martin Kempter and once from Evgeny Stalev, but I disapproved of it on each occasion.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Would you really have held up the stream table to have the run completed when it was time for the finals of the event? ...

The final match started about 1¾ hours after that semifinal match ended.
 

9 Ball Fan

Darth Maximus
Silver Member
The final match started about 1¾ hours after that semifinal match ended.

I'm just saying I wouldn't have stopped his run. He might be on his all time best run. Let him go, if he wants to. Not my call there, but I wouldn't have done it.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tricky subject. The record for consecutive free throws made in basketball is 2,750 which was done by a 71 year old podiatrist named Tom Amberry and yet I don't think anyone has ever hit 100 in a row in NBA competition.

Ask anyone who was the best free throw shooter ever and I doubt anyone will say Tom Amberry, but if the record need not be set in competition, Amberry was, perhaps, the best. Amberry, by the way, turned down an offer to play for the Lakers.

He would have also been the oldest NBA player ever by nearly thirty years! ��
 

kkdanamatt

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The final match started about 1¾ hours after that semifinal match ended.

Correct.

I was present for Appleton's 204 unfinished run, before Bustamante scattered the balls.
If I had been the referee, I would have announced the winner at the conclusion of the match when Appleton ran the 200. Then I would have secured the table and asked Darren if he wanted to continue the run. If he had said "yes", then I would have let him run out the balls on the table, marked the break ball and the cue ball positions on the table, and after the tournament's final match between Hohmann and Appleton, I would have asked Darren when and if he wanted to continue the run.

Yes, Darren was tired and needed to rest before the finals with Thorsten, but the table should have been marked just in case he wanted to continue later.

When great players hit that magical 200 mark, they almost always want to see how far they can go.

It was an historic moment in official 14.1 competition, and proper precautions should have been taken by the referee.
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Correct.

I was present for Appleton's 204 unfinished run, before Bustamante scattered the balls.
If I had been the referee, I would have announced the winner at the conclusion of the match when Appleton ran the 200. Then I would have secured the table and asked Darren if he wanted to continue the run. If he had said "yes", then I would have let him run out the balls on the table, marked the break ball and the cue ball positions on the table, and after the tournament's final match between Hohmann and Appleton, I would have asked Darren when and if he wanted to continue the run.

Yes, Darren was tired and needed to rest before the finals with Thorsten, but the table should have been marked just in case he wanted to continue later.

When great players hit that magical 200 mark, they almost always want to see how far they can go.

It was an historic moment in official 14.1 competition, and proper precautions should have been taken by the referee.

Are you kidding? Who would consider a high run that was broken up by perhaps 12 other innings of play?
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I'm just saying I wouldn't have stopped his run. He might be on his all time best run. Let him go, if he wants to. Not my call there, but I wouldn't have done it.

Personal bests are not, and have never been, what tournaments are about. Tournaments are about winning. When a match is over, it's over. If a guy who has never run a three pack runs the last two racks of a tournament nine ball match and asks to keep going since his personal best is possibly within reach, would you permit it? If I were the tournament director, I might just die from how hard I'd laugh at the request.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Exhibition vs practice run = distinction without a difference as long as there is video of the practice run. Mosconi said his high run was 609 but the 526 is considered legit because it was witnessed. A run on video is witnessed.
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
Personal bests are not, and have never been, what tournaments are about. Tournaments are about winning. When a match is over, it's over. If a guy who has never run a three pack runs the last two racks of a tournament nine ball match and asks to keep going since his personal best is possibly within reach, would you permit it? If I were the tournament director, I might just die from how hard I'd laugh at the request.

Tap tap tap.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... The record for consecutive free throws made in basketball is 2,750 which was done by a 71 year old podiatrist named Tom Amberry and yet I don't think anyone has ever hit 100 in a row in NBA competition.

Ask anyone who was the best free throw shooter ever and I doubt anyone will say Tom Amberry, but if the record need not be set in competition, Amberry was, perhaps, the best. Amberry, by the way, turned down an offer to play for the Lakers.

Stu -- looks like Ted St. Martin nearly doubled Amberry's consecutive free throw record of 2,750 (in 1993) with 5,221 about 2½ years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtvRN5S7m_U

And you're right about the NBA; the record is 97 by Michael Williams: https://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_freethrows.html
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Stu -- looks like Ted St. Martin nearly doubled Amberry's consecutive free throw record of 2,750 (in 1993) with 5,221 about 2½ years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtvRN5S7m_U

And you're right about the NBA; the record is 97 by Michael Williams: https://www.nba.com/history/records/regular_freethrows.html

Thanks for that. Didn't know about Ted St Martin. Amberry must have been shocked when his record fell!

Still, it's another fine example of how there must always be a distinction made between what is accomplished in the heat of battle at the highest level and what is done under any other circumstances.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Personal bests are not, and have never been, what tournaments are about. Tournaments are about winning. When a match is over, it's over. If a guy who has never run a three pack runs the last two racks of a tournament nine ball match and asks to keep going since his personal best is possibly within reach, would you permit it? If I were the tournament director, I might just die from how hard I'd laugh at the request.

I’m going with this....I respect the competitive runs the most...
...every shot, you must make a decision...to go for it or play safe.

I saw a big money game in Harlem when I was a kid...a top player was running out the
what would’ve been the last game...all the money was up...game was to 100...
...he missed at 99....chuckled...the other guy was going to 75...taking all the side bets....
...the guy ran out...a few hours later, he had the room broke.

....I enjoy the exhibition or practise runs, but far more balls will be made because there
are no white flags....it’s like playing the ghost, anything goes.
 
Top