Recording pool matches camera angle

MeeLosh

MeeLosh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is my personal belief that recording pool matches from "top to bottom" is outdated. A thing of the past when 4:3 TV was king. It brings a crooked perspective and doesn't really give a fair idea of depth in most cases.

Now that most of us have widescreen TVs, wouldn't it be better to record matches mainly from the side? It gives a better view of the table, plus it uses the widescreen technology better.

Here are some examples:

https://youtu.be/Lypk8aGcXLg?t=1m17s

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrLJ5sl-87k

Am I the only one who feels this way?
 
Gunn_Slinger

Gunn_Slinger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like the first one. Very good height and angle. Second is too far away.
Good idea. Announcers would like to see the real angles.
Now, if we could just use the original colors for the BALLS!!
Lol
Thanks
 
Cardigan Kid

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
MeeLosh said:
It is my personal belief that recording pool matches from "top to bottom" is outdated. A thing of the past when 4:3 TV was king. It brings a crooked perspective and doesn't really give a fair idea of depth in most cases.

Now that most of us have widescreen TVs, wouldn't it be better to record matches mainly from the side? It gives a better view of the table, plus it uses the widescreen technology better.

Here are some examples:

https://youtu.be/Lypk8aGcXLg?t=1m17s

or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrLJ5sl-87k

Am I the only one who feels this way?
Click to expand...

Definitely the first one is a great angle and very good presentation for announcers. That would eliminate many discussions of whether or not a ball has a pocket and can make it by another blocking ball.

Like you said, it also fills the phone, tablet, or widescreen tv up very nicely.

The downside is the camera has to be mounted on a ceiling at a height to get the whole table in. Tripods do not reach that high, so from the side with a tripod you would still get that blending angle of balls makes by rails/balls in the foreground.

I think that's why many streamers still go end table or at the lower corner pocket, because with the tripod maxed out, the length of the table takes away most foreground problems/obstructions....But the depth of field is still a problem and having trouble seeing if the layout is the same as what the player sees at the table.

Good thread by the way. Maybe we can get other streamers perspectives on this.
POV pool is one of the best and he must have taken advantage of the house video camera installed up high to get that angle. Or maybe he clipped a go pro up on a ceiling beam. Great angle nevertheless.
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
I just bought one of these for my cell phone to stream matches on Facebook. It wraps around the light and much more adjustable than traditional tripods

Kd
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Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
TX Poolnut

TX Poolnut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If we're talking one static point of record, I guess the high side view is best.

It's just soo nice when viewing a match from multiple angles.

Everybody all together now, "No Shi* Sherlock!"
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think both videos linked in the OP's post are using a wide angle fish eye type lens. That is why the table rails are crooked, and the corner pockets look a bit smaller. The reason to use this type of lens is if you can't get far enough away from the table with the camera.

Assuming there is enough room for a regular lens and vertical or horizontal table layout, I'm still a bit torn myself. I think the vertical layout might be better, but its just a preference.
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Kid Dynomite said:
I just bought one of these for my cell phone to stream matches on Facebook. It wraps around the light and much more adjustable than traditional tripods

Kd
2c19df5b4b6fb229fa17895d650bd44b.jpg
a100b6b57af43cf452e3937eade3b16d.jpg


Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Did you stand on the table and put the phone by the light just holding it with your hand, to see if it gets the whole table? You might need to mount the phone on another table's light to get your entire table in view.
 
Kid Dynomite

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
Did you stand on the table and put the phone by the light just holding it with your hand, to see if it gets the whole table? You might need to mount the phone on another table's light to get your entire table in view.
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Correct! I put it on the adjacent table light and works fine. !

Just learned how to stream on Facebook a,,week ago. So, I will post a few matches from time to time.

Kd
 
TILT9

TILT9

Banned
My neighbor is a "Super Stealth Drone" freak.
The pair next door could put 1/2doz flying above , along side and even down under , you'd never notice them.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
I think both videos linked in the OP's post are using a wide angle fish eye type lens. That is why the table rails are crooked, and the corner pockets look a bit smaller. The reason to use this type of lens is if you can't get far enough away from the table with the camera.

Assuming there is enough room for a regular lens and vertical or horizontal table layout, I'm still a bit torn myself. I think the vertical layout might be better, but its just a preference.
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Pretty much my thoughts exactly. The side view makes better use of the frame shape and ratio, but the side view doesn't usually give as good of a perspective and isn't as "natural" or aesthetically pleasing to watch and it is made even worse when using a lens that causes distortion/curves. I think which viewing angle nets out better all things considered may vary by situation and personal preference. I like both at times but find that I tend to enjoy the vertical view from end rail most of the time.

Whichever angle the steamer chooses though, the number one cardinal sin in streaming is being zoomed out too far--yet you still see it literally all the time. If there is 4-5 feet of viewing area around all sides of the table then you are zoomed out WAY too far, literally twice as much as you should be. Because of the table shape in comparison to the screen shape there will often have to large amounts of space around two (opposite) sides of the table, but they should still be zoomed in to crop pretty tight to the other two (opposite) sides of the table. In the two videos in post #1 they are zoomed in great in the first video and crop the shot well, but they are zoomed out WAY too far in the second video where you can see tons of area all around all four sides of the table yet lots of streamers still crop their shots that way. Drives me nuts and makes it all but unwatchable when they are zoomed out like that.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
TX Poolnut said:
It's just soo nice when viewing a match from multiple angles.

Everybody all together now, "No Shi* Sherlock!"
Click to expand...

At least as often as not I find myself wishing that streamers did NOT have multiple viewing angles, but only because they don't know how to use them. Cardinal sin #2 in streaming is switching angles constantly for no reason, and especially at the wrong times.

Switching angles too often detracts from the viewing experience, not adds to it. On 90% of shots you don't need to see another angle and an overly constant changing of perspective and viewing angle is just flat annoying. When you need to see another better perspective on a shot for some reason, or need to see if a ball has a clear path to the pocket, or how close two balls are to each other, or whether a ball is frozen to a rail, or exactly how a ball lies, of the player's body is blocking the shot, etc, then by all means show other angles. Otherwise leave the damn camera alone and on the same view for most of the match. It seems like sometimes they just want to show off that they have all these cameras and different angles and as a result their viewing experience suffers and they would have been much better off by not switching them around nearly as often.

But for the love of all that is holy, at least do not change camera angles right as they are pulling the trigger on the shot. If the streamer finds that they snoozed and didn't switch back to the angle they should have in time, it is better to just leave it alone at that point than to change angles just as they are about to pull the trigger or even worse right after they have pulled the trigger and the balls are still moving on the shot.

They often switch angles way too often and at the wrong times, but yes if used with restraint and at the right times multiple angles is a great benefit otherwise it is just more of an annoyance that detracts more than it adds.
 
MeeLosh

MeeLosh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Poolplaya9 said:
...but the side view doesn't usually give as good of a perspective and isn't as "natural" or aesthetically pleasing to watch...
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Interestingly enough, I feel quite the opposite is true. When I look at the first link I posted, I don't have any issues determining the distance of any ball, nor their alignment. Can we say the same for "bottom-to-top" view from the end rail? :confused: I myself have been confused about the alignment of a few balls here and there for sure, and it's mostly due to the perspective issues. I find that those same issues are not present in a side view.

As for "natural", you have a point there, but I think it's in large part due to how we've been accustomed to watch these videos shot from the end rail for decades. That and when you're playing, usually you're sitting down one of the short rails while your opponent shoots.

Finally, we can draw comparison to most of the other major sports out there: soccer, basketball, football, water polo, handball, volleyball... they're all shot predominantly from the side (tennis being one of the few examples).

Edit: Oh, and I completely agree with you regarding how multiple camera angles can detract from the experience instead of enhancing it if not done properly.
 
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iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Poolplaya9 said:
At least as often as not I find myself wishing that streamers did NOT have multiple viewing angles, but only because they don't know how to use them. Cardinal sin #2 in streaming is switching angles constantly for no reason, and especially at the wrong times.

Switching angles too often detracts from the viewing experience, not adds to it. On 90% of shots you don't need to see another angle and an overly constant changing of perspective and viewing angle is just flat annoying. When you need to see another better perspective on a shot for some reason, or need to see if a ball has a clear path to the pocket, or how close two balls are to each other, or whether a ball is frozen to a rail, or exactly how a ball lies, of the player's body is blocking the shot, etc, then by all means show other angles. Otherwise leave the damn camera alone and on the same view for most of the match. It seems like sometimes they just want to show off that they have all these cameras and different angles and as a result their viewing experience suffers and they would have been much better off by not switching them around nearly as often.

But for the love of all that is holy, at least do not change camera angles right as they are pulling the trigger on the shot. If the streamer finds that they snoozed and didn't switch back to the angle they should have in time, it is better to just leave it alone at that point than to change angles just as they are about to pull the trigger or even worse right after they have pulled the trigger and the balls are still moving on the shot.

They often switch angles way too often and at the wrong times, but yes if used with restraint and at the right times multiple angles is a great benefit otherwise it is just more of an annoyance that detracts more than it adds.
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Ha ha, I've posted this in the streaming forum a bunch of times. The other one that eats me up is using a fade in/out when switching camera angles. Or Bigtruck used to put an American flag in between the fade. Live sports on network tv is always a direct switch with zero transition special effects between cameras. For speed. So you don't miss anything. Pet peeve!
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
MeeLosh said:
As for "natural", you have a point there, but I think it's in large part due to how we've been accustomed to watch these videos shot from the end rail for decades. That and when you're playing, usually you're sitting down one of the short rails while your opponent shoots.
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Being more used to the end rail view because that is the view we most often see in videos and as a spectator in person could for sure play a part in why many people prefer it and find it to be a better perspective, but I suspect the biggest reason has to do more with what we are used to as a player.

As a player pretty much the only view we ever have while making shots is down the line of the shot and so we all seem to prefer seeing down the line of a shot in most cases even as a spectator if we have a choice. If you think about it, when we want the best view and perspective of our opponent's shot we almost always go to one end of the shot or the other so we are looking down the line of the shot (except in cases where there is a need for something else like having to be really close to the object ball to call a close hit or something like that which might require being on the side of the shot). With the side rail camera view you tend to be looking across the majority of the shot lines, whereas with the end rail camera view you tend to be looking more down the line of most of the shots and this is the perspective we intuitively seem to prefer for most shots probably because it is the view that is closest to what we would have if we were playing the shot.

In one pocket the additional benefit of the end rail camera view is that you are closest to where most of the action happens.
 
Poolplaya9

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
The other one that eats me up is using a fade in/out when switching camera angles. Or Bigtruck used to put an American flag in between the fade. Live sports on network tv is always a direct switch with zero transition special effects between cameras. For speed. So you don't miss anything. Pet peeve!
Click to expand...

Totally agree. This would be cardinal sin #3 in filming pool but is right there with #2 or could even be lumped in with it. There should be no fades or transition effects ever as they add little or nothing to the production value but invariably they will cause you to miss things and the trade off isn't close to worth it.
 
TX Poolnut

TX Poolnut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd assume video was recorded from the footrail back in the old days because that's where the balls start when playing 14.1. It makes sense for straight pool but maybe not for games where the balls tend less to hang out on the foot side of the table. Maybe side view is better for 9ball and 3 cushion.
 
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