Pendulum Stroke

BeiberLvr said:

I remember reading that the tip is supposed to end up on the felt after contacting the CB.

Is that the case for all shots?

I always thought it would be awkward on follow shots, but I tried it today, and had really good results. It was really good for consistency at the end of the stroke, but I'm honestly not sure if it's what most instructors would consider a pendulum stroke.

Click to expand...

This may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u52gKAehqo

But to answer your question, no. This depends on a number of factors with the shot at hand.

I failed to mention that the cue stick action can be compared to the action of a casting rod, as in fishing. Using this mental image will cause the cue to dip toward the table at the end of stroke. (finish)

Have fun and practice often. :wink:

John

Bob Jewett said:

It is important to understand the underlying goals that lead to ideas like: "supposed to end up on the felt." Are you familiar with those underlying goals?

Click to expand...

Not sure what you are talking about here Bob. Could you be more specific?

I find a pendulum stroke with "extended" follow through that often winds up with the tip on the cloth is useful. Seems to in some way contribute to "trapping" the cue ball under the tip and thus yields a better roll on the cue ball.

Has anyone ever looked at this kind of thing with slow motion video? Perhaps some sort of analysis of dwell time when extended follow through has been used has been conducted.

I know there is a standard litany about dwell time ( x msec.) but it also seems to me that some ways of using the cue might extend that dwell time and contribute to cue ball roll that has less of a tendency to roll off line.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

One Pocket John said:

This may help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u52gKAehqo

But to answer your question, no. This depends on a number of factors with the shot at hand.

I failed to mention that the cue stick action can be compared to the action of a casting rod, as in fishing. Using this mental image will cause the cue to dip toward the table at the end of stroke. (finish)

Have fun and practice often. :wink:

John

Click to expand...

John

What did that video have to do with the tip touching the table????

Thanks
randyg

BeiberLvr said:

I remember reading that the tip is supposed to end up on the felt after contacting the CB.

Is that the case for all shots?

I always thought it would be awkward on follow shots, but I tried it today, and had really good results. It was really good for consistency at the end of the stroke, but I'm honestly not sure if it's what most instructors would consider a pendulum stroke.

Click to expand...

I don't think that the tip has to touch the table!!!!
randyg

Bob Jewett said:

I think it's better to work from specific goals. I think that's better than a list of "mandatory" techniques and motions without any underlying reasons or justification for learning them.

The primary goal at pool is to win the game. That leads to the goal of making most shots. With a little argumentation, that leads to position play as a useful sub-goal. That in turn is best served by hitting the cue ball in the right place to get the intended spin on the cue ball. At this point it is often argued that the easiest way to do that consistently is to address the cue ball where you intend/plan to hit it and then hit it there.

The usefulness of both the pendulum and piston stroke lies in the fact that they make the physical motion in achieving that last (sub-)goal simpler.

The real goal in developing your stroke is not to have a particular motion of the arm, just as it is not to have your rear foot in a particular place or to have your dominant eye in a particular position. The goal is to hit the cue ball consistently which helps the goal of good position play which helps you make more balls (with easier shots) which helps you win games.

Not everyone agrees with the links in the chain of goals that gets you down to trying to perfect a specific set of stroke mechanics. PoolKiller, for example, sees no point in position play.

Maybe this chain-of-goals thing is boring and obvious, but I see a lot of advice that does not seem to follow from the primary goal. Consider both the bridge hand and the left forearm. There are a lot of "musts" in instruction about them rather than "becauses."

Click to expand...

Ahh, now I understand what you are talking about and I agree with your thoughts. There is definitely too much emphasis on do this or do that and not enough on how this or that contributes to achieving the goal.

I think that a player should take a recommendation and then determine how it contributes to the goal for that player. I think this is in agreement with your ideas.

To me it is obvious that there are many ways to play as evidenced by the wide variety of styles that can be observed among the pros, let alone anyone else. Given that so many styles work, then each player needs to determine what works for their personal game and the sub-goals within their game.

In my opinion each player needs a self assessment to determine how well they usually play. This benchmark can then be used to evaluate various recommendations to determine the value for their individual style.

randyg said:

John

What did that video have to do with the tip touching the table????

Thanks
randyg

Click to expand...

The video demonstrates the two most widely used stroke techniques, the piston and the pendulum.

The OP stated that he read that the tip of the cue should be touching the cloth after the stroke.

Employing either type of stroke method it is best to have the cue seek the cloth after the stroke rather than the tip of the cue seeking the sky after the stroke.

The important point here, no matter which technique is used, is that the cue be as level as possible when striking the cue ball, what happens after the strike with the cue doesn't really matter.

What is important is the mental image a person has of the cue action prior to striking the QB. This is why its is important to imagine the cue stick seeking the cloth at the end (finish) of the stroke.

Does the tip of the cue actually touch the cloth after the stroke.......sometimes it does.

John :smile:

One Pocket John said:

The video demonstrates the two most widely used stroke techniques, the piston and the pendulum.

The OP stated that he read that the tip of the cue should be touching the cloth after the stroke.

Employing either type of stroke method it is best to have the cue seek the cloth after the stroke rather than the tip of the cue seeking the sky after the stroke.

The important point here, no matter which technique is used, is that the cue be as level as possible when striking the cue ball, what happens after the strike with the cue doesn't really matter.

What is important is the mental image a person has of the cue action prior to striking the QB. This is why its is important to imagine the cue stick seeking the cloth at the end (finish) of the stroke.

Does the tip of the cue actually touch the cloth after the stroke.......sometimes it does.

John :smile:

Click to expand...

What a great answer.

Thanks
randyg

One Pocket John said:

The video demonstrates the two most widely used stroke techniques, the piston and the pendulum.

The OP stated that he read that the tip of the cue should be touching the cloth after the stroke.

Employing either type of stroke method it is best to have the cue seek the cloth after the stroke rather than the tip of the cue seeking the sky after the stroke.

The important point here, no matter which technique is used, is that the cue be as level as possible when striking the cue ball, what happens after the strike with the cue doesn't really matter.

What is important is the mental image a person has of the cue action prior to striking the QB. This is why its is important to imagine the cue stick seeking the cloth at the end (finish) of the stroke.

Does the tip of the cue actually touch the cloth after the stroke.......sometimes it does.

John :smile:

Click to expand...

Precise and perfect chosen words.
Thumbs up!

Lg from overseas
Ingo

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2

+1

Agreed. The tip doesn't have to touch the table! In my opinion, Vivian Villareal and Gerda Hofstatter have one of the most classic, textbook and beautiful "pendulum" strokes I've ever seen. YouTube them.

randyg said:

I don't think that the tip has to touch the table!!!!
randyg

Click to expand...

BeiberLvr said:

I remember reading that the tip is supposed to end up on the felt after contacting the CB.

Is that the case for all shots?

I always thought it would be awkward on follow shots, but I tried it today, and had really good results. It was really good for consistency at the end of the stroke, but I'm honestly not sure if it's what most instructors would consider a pendulum stroke.

Click to expand...

Maybe after a draw shot. Don't see it happening with a good stroke on anything else.

One Pocket John said:

The video demonstrates the two most widely used stroke techniques, the piston and the pendulum.

The OP stated that he read that the tip of the cue should be touching the cloth after the stroke.

Employing either type of stroke method it is best to have the cue seek the cloth after the stroke rather than the tip of the cue seeking the sky after the stroke.

The important point here, no matter which technique is used, is that the cue be as level as possible when striking the cue ball, what happens after the strike with the cue doesn't really matter.

What is important is the mental image a person has of the cue action prior to striking the QB. This is why its is important to imagine the cue stick seeking the cloth at the end (finish) of the stroke.

Does the tip of the cue actually touch the cloth after the stroke.......sometimes it does.

John :smile:

Click to expand...

Well stated John.

'You Are the Teacher'

A very informative & 'usefull' post.

I'd just like to add a claification as food for thought & that is... what happens after the cue strikes the ball is most often the result of what happened before & during the strike. It can be an indicator of the actual stroke.

Whether you call it a follow through or a finish, it is not completely independent & therefore meaningless. It is often an indicator of the cue's path & force level (possible decelleration) during the actual strike.

If the tips moves to the left or right after the strike, it could be an indicator of a 'fault' in the actual stroke. A vertical movement after the strike can also be an indicator of a possible 'flaw' as well.

If the acelleration of a true gravity pendulum could be matched by our biomechanics it would be a good thing where acelleration is concerned, as a true pendulum does not begin to decellerate until just after the bottom of its arch when the change of direction ocurrs. However, a true gravity driven pendulum does not meet any resistance at the bottom of its arch as does a pool cue when it meets the cue ball. Any deceleration before contact can be detrimental. With that in 'mind' sometimes mental thoughts regarding the follow through or finish can be helpful.

My personal preference for a strike above the equator of the ball is not for my tip to be moving toward the cloth. I would prefer it to travel straight through. To pin the ball between the tip & cloth brings a bit of resistance into play, which could either limit the roll of the ball or perhaps even initiate more of a 'skid' before the roll begins, sort of like a 'squirt'. That being said, there could be times when that type result might be desirable for a given situation, especially if coupled with an intential bit of off center hit.

Sorry for the rant. I really only meant to add one point. My mind was just stimulated one thought upon another.

As I said, all of the above is just meant to be food for thought & obviously are just my opinions & I am not certified as an instructor.

Again, good post John.

Is the J stroke considered pendulum, piston, or both ?

On soft shots I see players with pure pendulum, but on harder shots with follow through, seems like most drop their elbow a little on the follow through after contact. I believe this is called a J stroke ?

Well then you haven't seen someone with a quality pendulum stroke. The tip ending up touching the cloth on a follow shot has everything to do with how someone's arm works with their body, AND how upright their stance is. I stand mostly about 10" over the cue, and my tip finishes on the cloth on every shot. If you stand low with your chin on the cue, then your tip will still angle down slightly (on a follow shot), but will not touch the cloth.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

hang-the-9 said:

Maybe after a draw shot. Don't see it happening with a good stroke on anything else.

Click to expand...

Bob Jewett said:

I think it's better to work from specific goals. I think that's better than a list of "mandatory" techniques and motions without any underlying reasons or justification for learning them.

The primary goal at pool is to win the game. That leads to the goal of making most shots. With a little argumentation, that leads to position play as a useful sub-goal. That in turn is best served by hitting the cue ball in the right place to get the intended spin on the cue ball. At this point it is often argued that the easiest way to do that consistently is to address the cue ball where you intend/plan to hit it and then hit it there.

The usefulness of both the pendulum and piston stroke lies in the fact that they make the physical motion in achieving that last (sub-)goal simpler.

The real goal in developing your stroke is not to have a particular motion of the arm, just as it is not to have your rear foot in a particular place or to have your dominant eye in a particular position. The goal is to hit the cue ball consistently which helps the goal of good position play which helps you make more balls (with easier shots) which helps you win games.

Not everyone agrees with the links in the chain of goals that gets you down to trying to perfect a specific set of stroke mechanics. PoolKiller, for example, sees no point in position play.

Maybe this chain-of-goals thing is boring and obvious, but I see a lot of advice that does not seem to follow from the primary goal. Consider both the bridge hand and the left forearm. There are a lot of "musts" in instruction about them rather than "becauses."

Click to expand...

There is a point in position play, but it's not obligatory to employ it. Just like everything else more or less. Everyone should use what they personally find effective.

Scott Lee said:

Well then you haven't seen someone with a quality pendulum stroke. The tip ending up touching the cloth on a follow shot has everything to do with how someone's arm works with their body, AND how upright their stance is. I stand mostly about 10" over the cue, and my tip finishes on the cloth on every shot. If you stand low with your chin on the cue, then your tip will still angle down slightly (on a follow shot), but will not touch the cloth.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Click to expand...

I can't even imagine how a follow or center ball shot will end up towards the cloth. If your follow-though on a follow shot goes DOWN to the cloth, won't you the cue be going down over the cueball as it's going forward pushing the cue ball with the tip and ferrule? Just like going UP in a draw shot would scoop it off the table? I don't see how it's physically possible with the way the ball is shaped without forcing the cueball down into the table. Any way to see that shot anywhere? With a side view if possible.

hang-the-9 said:

I can't even imagine how a follow or center ball shot will end up towards the cloth. If your follow-though on a follow shot goes DOWN to the cloth, won't you the cue be going down over the cueball as it's going forward pushing the cue ball with the tip and ferrule? Just like going UP in a draw shot would scoop it off the table? I don't see how it's physically possible with the way the ball is shaped without forcing the cueball down into the table. Any way to see that shot anywhere? With a side view if possible.

Click to expand...

When a player finds their "sweet spot" this is how a pendulum stroke works.


At contact with the cue ball the cue stick is traveling linear or level to the table. After that 1/1000 of contact the cue ball is gone on it's path. As the back hand continues to swing up the tip starts down. All after contact with the cue ball.

randyg