Consistency of APA Ratings

pogmothoin · Feb 20, 2016

We had a discussion the other night with some other APA players from a different area. It revolved around the consistency of APA ratings from one league area to the next.

My thought was that since the APA is a national organization that the ratings should be fairly consistent. I have never played outside my area, never been to Vegas so I have no reference.

The other players who played in two different APA leagues and who had been to Vegas said there is a wide difference in the ability of players of the same skill level from one area to the next.

Do any of you have insight on why this may be? What are your experiences?

Black Cat 5791 · Feb 21, 2016

It is possible. But, everything is really subjective to each area. I think that players from smaller area's may be at a disadvantage, because they can fall into that Big Fish in a Small Pond Syndrome in that there just aren't enough other potential Big Fish to keep them in check.

Also, style of play can come into the formula as well, you could have a SL 6 that can run the table but doesn't until they get all their balls open. You could have someone that play's a lot of defense, but score keepers don't keep score properly. So that could allow a player to be a lot stronger than their SL indicates.

Then there's the issue of being strong or weak at your SL, are you a SL 5.0, 5.5, 5.9? It doesn't show on Paper But the Computer knows, that's why you can have a brand new SL 5 "5.0", get blown away by a SL 5 "5.9" which is basically a SL 6, or SL 4 "4.9" that beats your SL 5 or 6.

Hope this answers your question. But in the end Have Fun, Play Pool. Keep Proper Score and it will all work out. This is also where knowing your players and the competition helps out.

~Black Cat~

Celophanewrap · Feb 21, 2016

There can definitely be a gap from area to area, sometimes a huge gap, but generally it turns out reasonably even and fair. I think it rarely has anything to do with sandbagging, but more to do with population and total teams and opponents available. Sometimes that's just the way it works out.

ctyhntr · Feb 21, 2016

Does the league operator offer anything other than 8-ball? If he/she doesn't offer 9-ball or Masters league, then everyone is lumped and squeezed together in SL 1-7 handicap scale.

Are there other league competition in the area, such as BCA or ACS sanctioned in-house leagues? Are there tournaments independent of APA?

mattb · Feb 21, 2016

Equipment also plays a factor

Our APA league plays on 9 foot Diamonds but all the qualifiers are held on 7 footers. Becomes a disadvantage as we only play on the bar boxes at the end of a session against people who play on that equipment weekly or in some cases daily. So a 6 on a bar box is not a 6 on a 9 footer.

For reference, we had a team that moved over to play and had some strong handicaps and a good, well rounded team. They got hammered their first session playing on the big tables. They ended up last by the end of the session. I am sure this same team would end up first if we all moved to the bar box league.

BmoreMoney · Feb 21, 2016

They have fractional S/L's? No sheet, I had no idea. When did that start and how long, or is that a regional thing?

Banks · Feb 21, 2016

BmoreMoney said:
They have fractional S/L's? No sheet, I had no idea. When did that start and how long, or is that a regional thing?

The ratings used for matches are without the decimal. Overall, people are 4.35, 5.8, etc. They seed for the singles event, so you get a general idea where you stand there. Been that way since i joined a decade ago.

As far as the original post goes.. most of the seeding that ive seen in Vegas has been pretty consistent. Once in a while something is out of whack, though i think that boils down to how the separate areas are run.. keeping track of safeties and such. That's my take on it.

pogmothoin · Feb 21, 2016

ctyhntr said:
Does the league operator offer anything other than 8-ball? If he/she doesn't offer 9-ball or Masters league, then everyone is lumped and squeezed together in SL 1-7 handicap scale.

Are there other league competition in the area, such as BCA or ACS sanctioned in-house leagues? Are there tournaments independent of APA?

I my area there is 8,9, DJ, masters, and probably 60 to 70 APA teams overall. No BCS or TAP that I know of but there is a small NAPA league.

pogmothoin · Feb 21, 2016

mattb said:
Our APA league plays on 9 foot Diamonds but all the qualifiers are held on 7 footers. Becomes a disadvantage as we only play on the bar boxes at the end of a session against people who play on that equipment weekly or in some cases daily. So a 6 on a bar box is not a 6 on a 9 footer.

For reference, we had a team that moved over to play and had some strong handicaps and a good, well rounded team. They got hammered their first session playing on the big tables. They ended up last by the end of the session. I am sure this same team would end up first if we all moved to the bar box league.

You think playing on 9 footers has been a disadvantage for your team when you play in Tri-cups or LTC's on the bar boxes?

On the APA scoresheet there is a check box for table size that the match was played on. Do you think that table size is a factor that S/L ratings are based?

pogmothoin · Feb 21, 2016

Black Cat 5791 said:
It is possible. But, everything is really subjective to each area. I think that players from smaller area's may be at a disadvantage, because they can fall into that Big Fish in a Small Pond Syndrome in that there just aren't enough other potential Big Fish to keep them in check.

Also, style of play can come into the formula as well, you could have a SL 6 that can run the table but doesn't until they get all their balls open. You could have someone that play's a lot of defense, but score keepers don't keep score properly. So that could allow a player to be a lot stronger than their SL indicates.

Then there's the issue of being strong or weak at your SL, are you a SL 5.0, 5.5, 5.9? It doesn't show on Paper But the Computer knows, that's why you can have a brand new SL 5 "5.0", get blown away by a SL 5 "5.9" which is basically a SL 6, or SL 4 "4.9" that beats your SL 5 or 6.

Hope this answers your question. But in the end Have Fun, Play Pool. Keep Proper Score and it will all work out. This is also where knowing your players and the competition helps out.

~Black Cat~

I can see your point about the size of the league and overall quality of the players in it. Just to be clear my question wasn't related to sandbagging or anything underhanded. But yes, dedication to proper scorekeeping is an issue too I suppose.

In the end I agree, it's all about having fun.

TheBook · Feb 21, 2016

I don't know how much of a factor it makes but different LO interpret the rules different.

I played under a few different APA LOs and on was the way that the inning was determined.

Under one every time a game was won it completed the inning.

Under the other and the right way was that the inning was not completed until after the next break and miss.

Black Cat 5791 · Feb 21, 2016

TheBook said:
I don't know how much of a factor it makes but different LO interpret the rules different.

I played under a few different APA LOs and on was the way that the inning was determined.

Under one every time a game was won it completed the inning.

Under the other and the right way was that the inning was not completed until after the next break and miss.

I'm not sure if your just not explaining yourself properly but, neither of the examples you've given is correct.

An inning is recorded after the second person shoots. Example in the very beginning of the match whoever wins the lag breaks, the person that racks is the is the second shooter, from this point forward for the entire match after that person finishes their turn at the table you mark an inning. If that person is shooting and win's the game or rack, that game is completed, if they break dry on the next rack then you would mark an inning, if they were to break and run then you would mark the game, and put a "0" for innings. This would continue until they complete a turn, so if during each game that second person were to take 5 turns at the table before someone won then it would be 5 innings.

Hope this clears this up, this is the only way to keep score, this is for 8 Ball or 9 Ball there is no other way to interpret this.

~Black Cat~

mattb · Feb 21, 2016

pogmothoin said:
You think playing on 9 footers has been a disadvantage for your team when you play in Tri-cups or LTC's on the bar boxes?

On the APA scoresheet there is a check box for table size that the match was played on. Do you think that table size is a factor that S/L ratings are based?

Yes, it is a disadvantage. It has been proved to me overall during those city tournaments. While the stronger players can adapt and win (SL 5-7), The lower player levels on our team usually get beat when playing an equal handicap.

I know there is a check box, but do not know if it has bearing on handicap as the APA keeps their formula a guarded secret.

TheBook · Feb 21, 2016

Black Cat 5791 said:
I'm not sure if your just not explaining yourself properly but, neither of the examples you've given is correct.

An inning is recorded after the second person shoots. Example in the very beginning of the match whoever wins the lag breaks, the person that racks is the is the second shooter, from this point forward for the entire match after that person finishes their turn at the table you mark an inning. If that person is shooting and win's the game or rack, that game is completed, if they break dry on the next rack then you would mark an inning, if they were to break and run then you would mark the game, and put a "0" for innings. This would continue until they complete a turn, so if during each game that second person were to take 5 turns at the table before someone won then it would be 5 innings.

Hope this clears this up, this is the only way to keep score, this is for 8 Ball or 9 Ball there is no other way to interpret this.

~Black Cat~

One did it the correct way.

The other had the teams mark a inning after the player "finished" their turn at the table. If they won a game it was a inning. If their was another game they got another inning after the break if they didn't make a ball. This gave them an extra inning.

Dunnn51 · Feb 21, 2016

oke: Consistency of APA Ratings < < < < Looking at title of thread ...

seriously ?? :shrug:

I think I am at APA 2.1 (and holding..... )

lorider · Feb 21, 2016

I have only 3 occasions where I have faced players from other areas

Twice at singles regionals and once at 9 ball team nationals.

In the regionals I never saw any one that I thought was underhandicapped

At nationals I saw 1 player that I thought was WA under handicapped. She happened to be a 2. An observer happened to be standing beside me watching as this 2 was playing my 3. After a few moments the observer said ...wow she made a pretty good run. I said ...yea...not bad for a 2 huh ?

He said ..she's a 2? I said...thats what the score sheet states. He went and got another observer to come wat,h also.

On the other hand ..i am sure several people thought I was under handicapped out there also based on me beating one 5 by 20-0 and another by 19-1 then losing by 1 point to 7 after being down 18-0 before I ever got fo the table.

Then I lost to a 3 by 25-27 lol dont really think he Ws a sand bagger. Darn good 3 or possibly an average 4. I just shot bad lol

cardiac kid · Feb 21, 2016

Banks said:
The ratings used for matches are without the decimal. Overall, people are 4.35, 5.8, etc. They seed for the singles event, so you get a general idea where you stand there. Been that way since i joined a decade ago.

John,

Last time I played National singles, was kind of shocked at my position on the "big board". If I understand it, the bracket at the absolute bottom of the "big board" is a group of 8 players ranked from the number one ranked player at the bottom to the number eight ranked at the top. Next bracket up is the number nine at the bottom then number 16 at the top and so on and so on. If that is correct, I was the number 9 ranked attending player in the country

? Really? Me? Of course in 2013, I was only 68 years young

.

Anyway, is a 20 year old player ranked a 7 in New York City or Los Angeles REALLY the same ranking as a 71 year old 7 from the backwoods of Upstate New York? Understand the "Equalizer" system says yes. Just doubt it very highly.

Lyn

GeoEnvi · Feb 24, 2016

mattb said:
Yes, it is a disadvantage. It has been proved to me overall during those city tournaments. While the stronger players can adapt and win (SL 5-7), The lower player levels on our team usually get beat when playing an equal handicap.

I know there is a check box, but do not know if it has bearing on handicap as the APA keeps their formula a guarded secret.

I see how it might be a disadvantage for one style shooter over another, or one format (8b vs 9b) over another.

An aggressive, cueball moving player might have trouble going from 9 ft to 7 ft, especially in 8B over 9B. There's far less room on the 7ft, and more likely clusters. That aggression and flash might win more 9B on the 9ft, but you need top positional play for 7ft 8B.

On the other hand, a pensive strategist on the 7ft might not win as much moving to the 9ft. Less clusters and more room for opponents to kick mean that weak safeties won't result in BIH as much. Speed control and willingness to move the ball around are important on the 9ft.

In summary, it's not the table size as much as it is the style of play and game format. Also, the difficulty for an amateur to adapt.

Skippy27 · Feb 24, 2016

I've been to Vegas and shot numerous people from all over the country in mini tournaments and I think the rating system is pretty consistent.

I saw one player there that was a borderline 7 playing in a 6 only tournament. The rest I felt were pretty consistent and I shot in many 5 & 6 and 6 only tournaments.

cubswin · Feb 24, 2016

I'm a low b, high c player depending on where I'm at. I'm currently a sl7 in apa, which is higher than my actual skill level in my opinion. Odds are I'll end up being a 8 fairly soon (9 ball).

In an area with a lot of good players, the lower level players are going to be better, and the 6's + will also be better. Just my opinion.

Consistency of APA Ratings

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