Why do Teachers insist on the Pendulum?

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Why do most pool teachers insist on their students learn a pendulum stroke? To me, it seems a piston stroke where the cue stick remains level through out the cue ball contact with a piston stroke is superior. It seems center ball contact and remaining center through the cue ball is superior. But, the user has to keep it straight and maybe that is hard for most of us to do. SO, before we even get to see the teacher, the teacher knows this (we can't keep it straight) and strives to make the stroke simple with only one moving part... the forearm. So now the student has a stroke that goes from high to low during the cue ball strike with only the forearm moving.
I think if you can keep the elbow dropping stroke straight, it's a superior stroke. Just my $.02.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...It seems center ball contact and remaining center through the cue ball is superior.

So now the student has a stroke that goes from high to low during the cue ball strike with only the forearm moving.
The tip isn't in contact with the CB long enough for the shape of your stroke to matter. As long as the tip hits the intended spot at the intended angle it's all the same to the CB. For a pendulum stroke, that's all in the setup - the pendulum delivers the tip accurately to the setup spot.

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
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Why do most pool teachers insist on their students learn a pendulum stroke? To me, it seems a piston stroke where the cue stick remains level through out the cue ball contact with a piston stroke is superior. It seems center ball contact and remaining center through the cue ball is superior. But, the user has to keep it straight and maybe that is hard for most of us to do. SO, before we even get to see the teacher, the teacher knows this (we can't keep it straight) and strives to make the stroke simple with only one moving part... the forearm. So now the student has a stroke that goes from high to low during the cue ball strike with only the forearm moving.
I think if you can keep the elbow dropping stroke straight, it's a superior stroke. Just my $.02.
Both a piston and a pendulum deliver the tip back to the point where you addressed the cue ball. The pendulum doesn't have to be from the elbow to do that as Mike Davis has demonstrated. The piston has more moving parts. There are lots of good players in each camp.

In fact the cue tip has almost no up/down movement around the time of contact for a standard pendulum stroke. There is quite a long distance over which the tip is moving nearly along the same path as a piston stroke. Someone here constructed a mechanical stroke simulator and drew the path for a pendulum stroke and it was quite amazing how straight it was through contact.

Most good players who use a pendulum stroke do something a little different for power shots.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Both a piston and a pendulum deliver the tip back to the point where you addressed the cue ball. The pendulum doesn't have to be from the elbow to do that as Mike Davis has demonstrated. The piston has more moving parts. There are lots of good players in each camp.

In fact the cue tip has almost no up/down movement around the time of contact for a standard pendulum stroke. There is quite a long distance over which the tip is moving nearly along the same path as a piston stroke. Someone here constructed a mechanical stroke simulator and drew the path for a pendulum stroke and it was quite amazing how straight it was through contact.

Most good players who use a pendulum stroke do something a little different for power shots.

Thanks, I appreciate that.
 

oldschool1478

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is from my post's in the thread Bob was referring to.

The green line is the cue at address.
When the tip is pulled back 10" it is exactly on the start (bridge pivot) of the S curve.
When the stroke swings forward it immediately starts downward to it's lowest point (0.075" below the center-line of the cue at address. It then swings upward crossing that line to it's highest point (0.015), and then back down to contact at the equator of the cue ball.

This is plotted in a cad program that allows me to fix the end points of certain lines,
and pivot on other's, dynamically.

Obviously, no human can swing a cue in a perfect pendulum fashion, or piston like either for that matter. With fewer moving parts, the pendulum will most likely produce the most consistent results, for us humans.
 

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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Why is dropping the elbow so bad?
I see so much in print about "don't do the elbow drop"
Why is it terrible to do it?

I don't know the percentage of pool teachers that promote the pendulum stroke maybe about 95% (?). I'm now practicing the piston stroke because I'm straight with it. Now, I can make the cue stick follow into the cue ball and beyond for the first time. Of course the follow through is about 6" further past the cue ball than the pendulum stroke. I would say try them both.
 
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SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
Why do most pool teachers insist on their students learn a pendulum stroke? To me, it seems a piston stroke where the cue stick remains level through out the cue ball contact with a piston stroke is superior. It seems center ball contact and remaining center through the cue ball is superior. But, the user has to keep it straight and maybe that is hard for most of us to do. SO, before we even get to see the teacher, the teacher knows this (we can't keep it straight) and strives to make the stroke simple with only one moving part... the forearm. So now the student has a stroke that goes from high to low during the cue ball strike with only the forearm moving.
I think if you can keep the elbow dropping stroke straight, it's a superior stroke. Just my $.02.[/QUOTE


first let me start with 1 size does not fit all styles so players that have their style of stroke ingrained that is not a pendulum stroke find it hard to adjust to a new style in general and few will put in the work to change it because it is hard.

With new players teaching a pendulum stroke is the easiest to teach because their is fewer moving parts and easier for the most part for them to master.

I can do anything with a pendulum stroke that anyone else can with a piston stroke, one is not superior over the other period!!

Teaching a player that uses the piston stroke generally needs help with a pre-shot routine, eye pattern and general issues such as alignment, grip pressure, stance ETC. I show them how a pendulum stroke works and some of the advantages. I tell them they can use some of what I show them all of what I show them or none of what I show them but they do have the knowledge and can experiment and see what works and does not work for their style of shooting.

When I met Scott Lee I was in between the two, where I dropped my elbow a lot on some shots and did close to a pendulum on other shots (elbow dropping only an inch or two). Scott had the same though as I do use some, all or none but you do have the information so experiment and implement what works and discard what don't.

I struggled a lot in the beginning but as the stroke became more natural I had a straighter stroke and was way more accurate at striking the cue ball and getting better results and my skill level jumped up fast.

I used to think that all my students had to change their stroke to become a much better player but learned in a short period that it was more than just the stroke that improved my game and that if a student could deliver a straight stroke on demand under pressure in one try than just give the student the information and let them figure out what works best for their game.

While transitioning from a recognized level through to the advance level instructor I have figured out that new players have the best results by teaching them the pendulum stroke from the very beginning.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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With new players teaching a pendulum stroke is the easiest to teach because their is fewer moving parts and easier for the most part for them to master.

I can do anything with a pendulum stroke that anyone else can with a piston stroke, one is not superior over the other period!!.

I would have to disagree, but I'm not an instructor. I was hoping instructors would tell us their view as you've done. I think if the person's stroke has trouble, maybe the pendulum stroke is simpler and what to teach. I do believe the piston stroke is far better IF we can keep it straight. Center ball through to center ball, stroke at least 6-8" further past the cue ball position than the pendulum, easier to get follow, draw shots with the cue stick going past further, etc.. Lots of people can not get a follow shot with a pendulum stroke. Have you seen that?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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It doesn't have to be one way or the other. I use both in my own game. The main difference between the two is in the stroke timing and the angle of attack of the cue stick at impact, especially when the elbow is dropped prior to impact.

It took me a long time and a lot of experimenting to figure out which works better for which type of shot for me. I share that information with my clients.
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
.
I use a pendulum stroke... but not on the 8 ball break.
Hard hitting players (bangers) usually drop the elbow.
.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Silver Member
.
I use a pendulum stroke... but not on the 8 ball break.
Hard hitting players (bangers) usually drop the elbow.
.

Bangers do and so do the professionals. People with pendulum strokes must have both that and a piston. I would love to see a pendulum stroke do a forced follow shot or high follow the cue ball down two long rails of a 9' table after hitting a ball. Can't wait to see it but haven't yet. If you can do that with a pendulum stroke where the cue hits the cloth a couple of inches after hitting the cue ball, please post a video. Thanks.
 

SFC9ball

JimBaker PBIA Instructor
Silver Member
I would have to disagree, but I'm not an instructor. I was hoping instructors would tell us their view as you've done. I think if the person's stroke has trouble, maybe the pendulum stroke is simpler and what to teach. I do believe the piston stroke is far better IF we can keep it straight. Center ball through to center ball, stroke at least 6-8" further past the cue ball position than the pendulum, easier to get follow, draw shots with the cue stick going past further, etc.. Lots of people can not get a follow shot with a pendulum stroke. Have you seen that?

I seen what you are describing with people who have all types of strokes, it has nothing to do with "Type" of stroke, it has to do with a player not knowing where Maximum top is, this applies to side and bottom as well.

How far you "follow through" does not affect how much top spin or draw you can get out of a shot/stroke. The tip is only on the cue ball for a fraction of a second (1/1000) so any distance after that does not affect the shot because the cue ball has already left the area.

My Follow through also known as the finish position is 6.5 inches
Randy G's is 4.25 inches if I remember correctly
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo

Bangers do and so do the professionals. People with pendulum strokes must have both that and a piston. I would love to see a pendulum stroke do a forced follow shot or high follow the cue ball down two long rails of a 9' table after hitting a ball. Can't wait to see it but haven't yet. If you can do that with a pendulum stroke where the cue hits the cloth a couple of inches after hitting the cue ball, please post a video. Thanks.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is from my post's in the thread Bob was referring to.

The green line is the cue at address.
When the tip is pulled back 10" it is exactly on the start (bridge pivot) of the S curve.
When the stroke swings forward it immediately starts downward to it's lowest point (0.075" below the center-line of the cue at address. It then swings upward crossing that line to it's highest point (0.015), and then back down to contact at the equator of the cue ball.

This is plotted in a cad program that allows me to fix the end points of certain lines,
and pivot on other's, dynamically.

Obviously, no human can swing a cue in a perfect pendulum fashion, or piston like either for that matter. With fewer moving parts, the pendulum will most likely produce the most consistent results, for us humans.

Maybe this question was covered in that other discussion, but in the diagram is the grip hand considered a pivot point? It seems to me the wrist and fingers present a more complicated situation. I wonder if that has been taken into account in diagrams such as yours.
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
Sorry I did not read your requirements carefully, but I bet you were surprised to see that much draw action with a pendulum stroke.

BTW if you saw a real bodybuilder they cannot straighten their arms at all.


Got to be a body builder and take the cue back where your arm is almost straight. .001% of us can do what he does.... and it is not forced follow with a pendulum stroke.
 
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