Opinions needed - my venture

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
I would appreciate any opinions/suggestions on my possible venture into forming a nationwide 14.1 league/organization.

I have put a lot of thought into it and am at the stage of creating and pricing promo posters , online advertising , magazine advertising etc..etc.. ( unless I get totally skinned alive here )

2 questions I also would like to put to you as well , would you play? would you be intersted in being a league operator?

visit http://www.14and1.com

Thanks much

Kev
 

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
selftaut said:
I would appreciate any opinions/suggestions on my possible venture into forming a nationwide 14.1 league/organization.

I have put a lot of thought into it and am at the stage of creating and pricing promo posters , online advertising , magazine advertising etc..etc.. ( unless I get totally skinned alive here )

2 questions I also would like to put to you as well , would you play? would you be intersted in being a league operator?

visit http://www.14and1.com

Thanks much

Kev

Kevin,

First, this is inspiring! I think it's a wonderful idea and I hope to support it in any way I can.

I took a quick look, and the only suggestion I have would be to change the handicapping. While I love the innovative idea of bringing no-count into a league format, there are two main problems you may encounter using no-count:

1) Games take much longer to play, and room owners might not love that.

2) More importantly, no-count games are difficult to score. The problem arises when there are multiple innings within the same rack. You have to keep track of your rack score in separate "stacks", because your current run has to be differentiated from the balls you made earlier in the rack. But you still need to count the balls made earlier in the rack so you and your opponent know how many were left on the table at the start of your inning. This is possible (though hard) with beads; very, very difficult with counters.

Other than the handicapping issues, I think you're on to something great and I wish you the best. If there is ever anything I can do, please PM me.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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I applaud your efforts. I shared a similar goal 2 years ago with the resurection of the world straight pool championships, which had been on hiatus for some 16 or 17 years.

Ultimately, the tournament was held to elevate straight pool back to it's rightfully respected position in the pool world. Anything that can further those goals I would gladly support.

As far as your details are concerend, I do have some reservations about your handicapping system. In large part, I suspect that all of your no count numbers in all divisions are on the low side. I would also hesitate to start EVERYONE at the b level. Most regional tours designated for amatuers have specific guidelines for participation. Although your aim is to have your league be all inclusive for all level of play, there must be some litmus test (as far as past regional/pro performances) to get a better handle on starting levels.

Just my .02

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to offer any experiences that I have had.

Randy Goldwater
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
Thank you Steve and Randy , your input is greatly appreciated , my handicap system is absolutely not stamped in stone , and is untried. Considering the experience of everyone on this board , if there is a system out there that can be used (or someone else has in their head) and is in agreement with everyone here then I will change it to that system , as long as its not stealing someone elses handicap system , I would not want to be accused of that.

Steve , on #1 concern I set the games to 75 thinking that might relieve that possible situation, and on your #2 concern I did think of that , and on the scoresheets there will be seperate boxes for every inning , when a player goes to the table for a next turn then a new box starts and the number of balls that are on the table is entered into the box , even if they are still in the same rack , this way there is always a ball starting count marked for each inning.

Randy , any ideas on how to set the handicap on opening day? I thought about leaving it up to League operators but that as you know could bite me in the arss.
BTW , your efforts in are the key inspiration for this idea , see what you started!

I am thrilled to hear I have support from you guys and any further suggestions are most welcome.

Kev
 
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3andstop

Focus
Silver Member
I love to hear about any resurgence in straight pool. But as much as I love the game, my first thought was the commitment that goes with league play. It may be hard enough to get interest, perhaps even harder to get long term commitment. Maybe tourneys with a cumulitive point system? Dunno, just a thought.
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
3andstop said:
I love to hear about any resurgence in straight pool. But as much as I love the game, my first thought was the commitment that goes with league play. It may be hard enough to get interest, perhaps even harder to get long term commitment. Maybe tourneys with a cumulitive point system? Dunno, just a thought.

3andstop , thank you for your thoughts , I considered possibly just making it a "qulifier tourney" type of thing , but what stopped me from thinking about that more was how I would implement a handicap system be put in place on a tourney format? especially with new players entering these tourneys all the time , can't leave it up to the local tourney operator as we all know. I think the only way to evealuate a players speed is over time with multiple matches.

thanks
Kev
 

dmgwalsh

Straight Pool Fanatic
Silver Member
selftaut said:
I would appreciate any opinions/suggestions on my possible venture into forming a nationwide 14.1 league/organization.

I have put a lot of thought into it and am at the stage of creating and pricing promo posters , online advertising , magazine advertising etc..etc.. ( unless I get totally skinned alive here )

2 questions I also would like to put to you as well , would you play? would you be intersted in being a league operator?

visit http://www.14and1.com

Thanks much

Kev

This is a great idea. I'm not sure how many league operators would get on board, but if they did, it would be nice to have a national system where perhaps players could rank themselves against others nationally and/or compete nationally.

I think you ought to solicit the input of Mr. Jewett who is another noted promoter of 14.1.

I am a player in two Chicago area 14.1 leagues, and occasionally, there are some 14.1 tournaments around here.

The Worlds in 2006 and 2007. The US Open in 2007. Looks like we might be headed in the right direction.

Dennis
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
dmgwalsh said:
This is a great idea. I'm not sure how many league operators would get on board, but if they did, it would be nice to have a national system where perhaps players could rank themselves against others nationally and/or compete nationally.

I think you ought to solicit the input of Mr. Jewett who is another noted promoter of 14.1.

I am a player in two Chicago area 14.1 leagues, and occasionally, there are some 14.1 tournaments around here.

The Worlds in 2006 and 2007. The US Open in 2007. Looks like we might be headed in the right direction.

Dennis

""but if they did, it would be nice to have a national system where perhaps players could rank themselves against others nationally and/or compete nationally. ""

Exactly Dennis! and thank you for your comments.
 

mthornto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think a national league is a worthwhile goal. I run a straight pool league in Columbus, Ohio. Beside my league, the is one other straight pool league in the area and plans for a third in September.

The game does seems to be enjoying a resurgence.
A few things to consider:

1. As has been pointed out, the handicapping system needs work. Personally, I am against having any no count. We have a wide set of skill levels in my league and even at 3 no count matches between some players would take all night.

My league uses a system similar to the system Jewett uses. It works quite well. Most matches end up competitive.


2. From you site: "65% of all membership and weekly fee's will be paid out in prizes at the 14and1.com Nationals , and cover costs of the Nationals. Remaining 35% will go to administration and operating costs."

This would be a big step down from what our (and I would guess most) straight pool leagues offer now. In my league, there are no membership fees. Part of the weekly fee goes to pay a fixed sum for table time and 100% of the rest goes to the prize pool. No administrative fees.
 

TheWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey guys :)

Kev, first I would like to say Hats off to you for your inspiration to try and strengthen the popularity of a REAL pool game and I wholeheartedly wishyou the very best of luck in your efforts, as well as the other good people here who are sharing their knowledge and experience to help with this project :)

Although I'm in Ireland, I played straight pool before I played 9ball or any other cuesport :), and I've been playing pool for over 20 years now :)

in Feb, this year saw the 1st ever straight pool event held, in which there were qualifiers, but the problem with the event was, the director of the pool tour, resticts all the events to just 1 day (Saturday), and the straight pool was definitely no exception, with each match only being played to 50 points, which as we all know, that's like a 1 rack shootout at 9ball :) lol

Anyways, what I'm writing in to ask about is, if the league and handicapp system is set up, that everyone is happy with, what would be the maximum number of points, that a player would have to reach to win his/her match?

The reason I ask this is because it's an interesting idea to try and set up a straight pool league over here in Ireland, (in a pool room that I play at called, 'Club9' which is the first pool room anywhere in Ireland to have a BCA league), but to set it up in some way that could be affiliated with what you're trying to set up :)

What I would wonder is, would it not be better to just use the straight pool score sheets that are on www.playpool.com ? :), they have separate boxes for each inning, and although they are printed out in normally A4 size, but I'm sure that it would be possible to have them copied and blown up to poster size, to allow plenty of room on the sheet for writing the scores down clearly :)

As reguards a handicapp system suggestion, I don't know because I've not had the oppertunity to play in a straight pool league, but whatever you guys can work out, is cool with me :)

I wish the the very best of luck with this Kevin :)

Willie
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
Thanks for your thoughts and input guys!

mthornto , the handicap system is certainly open for debate , I would love to have the outcome of this thread come up with a system that everyone here can agree is fair, and how to start it off without having to visually rate the speed of players for the first week , that would be impossible. On the money end that you mentioned , I think it would be hard to compare the 2 because your league being localized with a totally different prize structure and most likely has not much overhead , on my end I believe I have to keep the league in the public eye through consistant promotion , which is very expensive , and running a yearly National event will be costly as well , in my system there is not prizes awarded locally unless the league operator decide to charge a few more bucks a week for a pool for local prizes , that 65% all goes to the Nationals prize fund, in addition I know better than to think its going to run itself and I won't spend much time in it , its going to take much time and effort on my part , and I feel If I can build it then my time might be worth a little something. Thanks for your comments and keep them coming!

Willie , thank you for your comments , I have my system at the moment set to 75 point games , this was set in conjunction with the "no count" system I have right now , if the system changes then I am sure the length of the games might change as well. The score sheets is the same story , they are really built around the system being used. I guess if you wanted to run a 14and1.com sanctioned league over there in Ireland I can't see anyone objecting to that , but its a long hike to the 14and1.com Nationals!

Kev
 
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TheWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Kev :), many thaks for the reply buddy :)

I'm liking the idea of the no count system :), it looks to be a more straight forward system, it certainly gets my vote :), 75 is a bit better than 50, but I have a feeling that you could get away with playing to 100 for matches between the higher ranked players and 75 for the lower ranked players :)

What are your thoughts on this? :)

Willie
 
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selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
TheWizard said:
Hey Kev :), many thaks for the reply buddy :)

I'm liking the idea of the no count system :), it looks to be a more straight forward system, it certainly gets my vote :), 75 is a bit better than 50, but I have a feeling that you could get away with playing to 100 for matches between the higher ranked players and 75 for the lower ranked players :)

What are your thoughts on this? :)

Willie

Thanks Willie! that is a great suggestion , maybe have the games go to 100 when 2 players are "A" and up , I think I may implement that , maybe lower the game to 50 when "D" and "C" match up.

Kev
 

TheWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
selftaut said:
Thanks Willie! that is a great suggestion , maybe have the games go to 100 when 2 players are "A" and up , I think I may implement that , maybe lower the game to 50 when "D" and "C" match up.

Kev

You're very welcome buddy :)

Yes that's right, in fact there's a way to fine tune the points level to the player's ability ranking :)

D Vs C rank, play to 50 (No count)

B Vs A rank, play to 75 (No count)

AA Vs PRO, play to 100 (No count)

You could also adjust it between the larger rank differences too :)

D/C Vs AA/PRO, play to 75 (No count)

D/C Vs B/A, play to 60 (No count)

B/A Vs AA/PRO, play to 90 (No count)

This way you'll be able to have a more detailed league scoring system, that allows you and the players to see who is improving, who is playing well, and by how much :), and as mentioned it can be shown on a weekly basis, especially with using the no count system :)

Willie
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
Thanks again Willie , I have made the changes after much thought into it , I did go with your suggestion and set the games to very similar to what you said. I also took into consideration that most think the matches would take to long , so I relieved some of that by having 50 point matches with the lower handicap match-ups , and I also lightened the no count needed across the board , after playing several games with some locals here myself under the system the last few days , I have determined that I did need to speed the games up a little but not that much , the games we played last night under this new system only took about 15 minutes longer with the no count system than a regular game would because the no count numbers are now in reach more easily, so taking everyones points into consideration I think it is getting fine tooned now and possibly getting close. There are some fine other systems out there that I do see , but I am in fear of someone saying I stole their system and taking the ship down at some point , that may sound silly but if this ever got huge one has to ask themself if that could happen, I think I am leaning with the no count and tuning it the best it can be.

The next thing I need to come up with is the tie breakers , if there are ties at the end of a league.

Kind Regards
Kev
 
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TheWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No worries buddy, it sounds like you have pretty much got it covered and that things are rolling :)

You're doing a great job so far and it can only get better with time :)

I'm going to look into getting a straight pool league started over here and see how it runs, but it depends on how many players that I can get, because as you can 8understand, there ain't no sense in running a league if only 4 players are gonna show up :) lol

You're more than welcome to fire away with any suggestions I have, as I'm happy to help if I can, after all, we're all here to try and make pool better for everyone :)

Thanks again for replying and I'm glad that I was able to help in some way or another, and if I can be of any more help, feel free to give me a hollar via the inbox :)

Best wishes

Willie
 

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
selftaut said:
Thanks again Willie , I have made the changes after much thought into it , I did go with your suggestion and set the games to very similar to what you said. I also took into consideration that most think the matches would take to long , so I relieved some of that by having 50 point matches with the lower handicap match-ups , and I also lightened the no count needed across the board , after playing several games with some locals here myself under the system the last few days , I have determined that I did need to speed the games up a little but not that much , the games we played last night under this new system only took about 15 minutes longer with the no count system than a regular game would because the no count numbers are now in reach more easily, so taking everyones points into consideration I think it is getting fine tooned now and possibly getting close. There are some fine other systems out there that I do see , but I am in fear of someone saying I stole their system and taking the ship down at some point , that may sound silly but if this ever got huge one has to ask themself if that could happen, I think I am leaning with the no count and tuning it the best it can be.

The next thing I need to come up with is the tie breakers , if there are ties at the end of a league.

Kind Regards
Kev


Kevin,

I want to caution you one more time against a no-count league. The games are very difficult to score (impossible with only counters - you either need beads or paper) and there is almost an exponential effect on how long the games can go. This means that for the higher-ranked players, if they don't win the game quickly, they get more and more tired, making it more and more unlikely they will reach their designated no-count in any given inning. Not sure what your top no-count is right now, but for a pro player (for it to mean anything), it should probably be around 40. In a game to 100, if a player isn't shooting well and has already pocketed 250 balls but still has a score of -5, this could be a very long day.

On top of that, the game is really a gimmick, usually given by top players to weaker players. Ending a run on defense (whether he's made the no-count or falls short) is almost never employed. It's not necessarily conducive to correct straight pool.

It's only my opinion, so please take it for what it's worth (not much) :). But I suppose if you could try to explain why you want to make the games no-count, it would make it easier for me to understand.

Thanks,
Steve
 

TheWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does the handicapp system work, that you play in, Steve? :)

I was gonna check out the website for Amsterdam Billiards in NYC, to see how their handicapp system works in their straight pool league :)

The no count type handicapp system that I'm thinking of, is both players playing a regular game/no points spotted, but the number of points winning the game being adjusted to the skill level of the players as I suggested on the previous page :)

At the moment though, like Kevin, I'm open to suggestions for a good handicapp system, that will be less time consuming for both players and room owners alike :)

Willie
 

Steve Lipsky

On quest for perfect 14.1
Silver Member
Hi Willie. Since the no-count portion of the game is where the handicap lies, usually both players play to the same number of points.

I can't tell from your post if you are talking about a true no-count league or if you are just talking about a league where different handicaps play to different point totals.

No-count games work like so: If I have to go 30-no-count, I don't receive any points until I run at least 30 balls, at which point I receive all 30 plus any more I run during that inning. If I run 29 and miss, I receive no points for the inning.

All straight pool leagues I've played are the type to which you refer. Different skill levels go to different point totals, but the games are not no-count.

- Steve
 

selftaut

straight pool nut
Silver Member
Steve Lipsky said:
Hi Willie. Since the no-count portion of the game is where the handicap lies, usually both players play to the same number of points.

I can't tell from your post if you are talking about a true no-count league or if you are just talking about a league where different handicaps play to different point totals.

No-count games work like so: If I have to go 30-no-count, I don't receive any points until I run at least 30 balls, at which point I receive all 30 plus any more I run during that inning. If I run 29 and miss, I receive no points for the inning.

All straight pool leagues I've played are the type to which you refer. Different skill levels go to different point totals, but the games are not no-count.

- Steve

Hi Steve , again thanks for your input , after the concensus was that the games might take to long I lightened the no count across the board to where the no count run would be more consistantly reachable according to skill level , and stepping up only 2 to 4 balls when going up the ladder , I also shortened the games for lower handicap matches. I took out the "pro" word for the top level.

I originally thought the no count system would be good to use for 2 reasons , first and most obvious I thought it would be a reasonable way to seperate skill levels , and secondly I thought under this system that it would almost force players to become better players if they were improving and their no count was now higher as they move up , I kind of have the thought that there is not much room for slacking , offensively it forces you to play at your best which in turn improves the players game. I certainly can see your point as well and as I said earlier this is not stamped in stone , I might go right back to the drawing board if nobody thinks this will work. On the scoring issue you mentioned , there will be scoresheets issued for league play and innings and balls will be written as the match goes. Chart below of how I have it set now .

14and1.com Player Level Chart:
-------------------------------------------

Player Level Minimum Run To Get Counted
_________ _______________________
AAA ..........................20 no count
AA ............................16 no count
A ..............................12 no count
B ................................8 no count
C ................................4 no count
D ................................2 no count

The length of league play matches are determined by skill level match-ups as follows:

AAA vs. AAA,AA or A .......100 point game.
AAA vs B,C or D ...............75 point game.
AA vs. AA,A,B,C or D.........75 point game.
A vs. A,B,C or D ..............75 point game.
B vs. B,C or D .................50 point game.
C vs. C or D ....................50 point game.


The first week any new league session ALL players start as a "B" level , even if players have previously played in a 14and1.com league.

MOVING UP OR DOWN IN HANDICAP: A match win by 15 balls or more advances a player up to the next level for their next match , a loss by 15 balls or more lowers a player down to the next level for their next match , a match win/loss by 14 balls or less then both players remain at their current handicap for their next league match. This formula continues throughout the length of your league.

Thanks for your ideas and please don't hesitate tell me what your thoughts are.

Kind regards
Kev
 
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