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01-17-2020, 06:36 PM

Hmmm, shaved slates that allow the balls to track into the pockets. That sounds really suspicious. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. That's almost like cheating.

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01-17-2020, 07:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
OK, here you go -- to me his effort was not unlike Kipchoge recently breaking the 2 hour marathon mark.

Kipchoge, a fabulous runner, used every trick in the book, including a flat, straight course; a cool, windless day; specialized shoes unreleased to the public from Nike; and a team of runners who ran in front and in back of him to reduce drag, with laser point markers projected on to the road from a pace car to show the way.

All that's fine I suppose... if you don't care about the spirit of the record.

So whaddahey. Let's get some guy to do a run, with a wide-mouth table, polishing the balls every rack, and with shaved slates that allow an OB to track into the pocket no matter how poorly hit. Or how about a down hill marathon?

Still the record, right?

Lou Figueroa
While much of your post is spot on, I think you do your position a great deal of injustice by the overstatement about polishing balls every rack and the allegation of shaved slates.

Are either of these tweaks documented fact, or just 'could have beens'?

And an earlier poster pointed out the lack of sponsors. Those with the money:
1- often offer product, in "Lou' of cash., And
B- had a good sense of the tangible worth of the record.


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01-17-2020, 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysnake View Post
Hmmm, shaved slates that allow the balls to track into the pockets. That sounds really suspicious. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. That's almost like cheating.

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Until it is proven, it is less likely true than the 626 itself.


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01-17-2020, 07:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
While much of your post is spot on, I think you do your position a great deal of injustice by the overstatement about polishing balls every rack and the allegation of shaved slates.

Are either of these tweaks documented fact, or just 'could have beens'?

And an earlier poster pointed out the lack of sponsors. Those with the money:
1- often offer product, in "Lou' of cash., And
B- had a good sense of the tangible worth of the record.

Really?

I didnít suggest any of that happened during JS run. I was saying that if you do not care about particulars and just want a number then why not.

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01-17-2020, 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
OK, here you go -- to me his effort was not unlike Kipchoge recently breaking the 2 hour marathon mark.

Kipchoge, a fabulous runner, used every trick in the book, including a flat, straight course; a cool, windless day; specialized shoes unreleased to the public from Nike; and a team of runners who ran in front and in back of him to reduce drag, with laser point markers projected on to the road from a pace car to show the way.

All that's fine I suppose... if you don't care about the spirit of the record.

So whaddahey. Let's get some guy to do a run, with a wide-mouth table, polishing the balls every rack, and with shaved slates that allow an OB to track into the pocket no matter how poorly hit. Or how about a down hill marathon?

Still the record, right?

Lou Figueroa
Itís funny you mentioned that. I remember reading the below article in fall and I thought about the 626.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...ate-it/599974/


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01-18-2020, 01:08 AM

xradarx: The table JS broke the record on was not out of the normal traffic area. It was the first table on the right as you walk into the front entrance of Easy Street Billiards in Monterey. Every person entering or leaving the place would have been in the line of sight and traffic area of a player on that table. There's also a table next to it on the left.

Danny: Put up a 627! We'd all love to see it and would pay for the video. And, it would end the debate forever. We know you can do it!
  
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01-18-2020, 03:22 AM

This.

Go for it Danny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbiHippie View Post
https://cdn.ymaws.com/bca-pool.com/r...un_record_.pdf

The BCA reviewed the unedited tape before formally announcing that Schmidt broke the record. That gives credibility to the claim.

Iím sure the BCA has its faults, but it is the recognized body for the sport and is generally perceived as a reputable organization. The BCA gains very little from recognizing Schmidtís run, but has a lot to lose (reputation-wise) if ever it was found that the evidence didnít support their public statement. The last thing any bureaucratic organization wants is to issue a retraction.

I shoot fairly often at Billiard of Springfield, by the way. The locals are all proud of your accomplishments as a player. Have you considered making your own concerted effort at breaking Schmidtís record? Many people think youíre one of the few who are capable of doing it. It would probably require the same full-time commitment that it did for Schmidt.

Seems like the sweetest resolution to this debate would be to snatch the record away from him. Just make sure that you donít make the same mistake he did by failing to post the video on YouTube while it was still newsworthy. Trust me, money will come with more eyeballs.


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Easy Street Billiards, Monterey CA
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Easy Street Billiards, Monterey CA - 01-18-2020, 08:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoolPlayer4 View Post
xradarx: The table JS broke the record on was not out of the normal traffic area. It was the first table on the right as you walk into the front entrance of Easy Street Billiards in Monterey. Every person entering or leaving the place would have been in the line of sight and traffic area of a player on that table. There's also a table next to it on the left. Read this very slowly. The business doesn't open until 1:00PM. JS team was allowed to practice @ 10:00AM daily for several hours, thus very little or no traffic. Viewing some of his practice runs you can clearly see that the table nearby was still covered and used by JS team for displaying personal items. Even on the day of the so-called record run, a practice run started @ 10:00AM and later after reaching the neighborhood of 200 balls without a miss, it became a bonified JS record run attempt and the run ended four hours and seven minutes later at 2:07PM with a miss on ball #627 supposedly. The business had only been open for customers for 1 hour seven minutes, so how much traffic and how many witnesses, the affidavit only included eight signatures, three team members, one business owner and four others.

Danny: Put up a 627! We'd all love to see it and would pay for the video. And, it would end the debate forever. We know you can do it!
Sorry, but facts don't lie and there they lay for all to see. A practice run of js626, nothing more.
  
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01-18-2020, 09:07 AM

As I've said, I believe the run happened, and its validation by the BCA is enough evidence of me.

That said, this is a matter of opinion and I'm trying to get a better handle on why others question whether the run was legit.

For me, the facts don't add up if this was all a hoax and the video was doctored to hide a miss or a foul, because:

1) given how unprepared John's team was for the release of the record setting run were it to occur, one must presume that the run caught them all off guard.

2) if they spent the period immediately following the alleged run doctoring/editing the video, they would have had plenty of time to come up with a marketing plan for release and marketing of the run.

3) given that John's team appears to have had no intention to market the run, what was the motive? Has anybody gained from this run financially? The BCA, which has not used the run in any way in its marketing of pool, certainly had no financial interest in signing off.

A couple of other thoughts.

Who is to say what the rules are governing an exhibition or even what an exhibition is?

All ball fouls?
We have seen Mosconi play an exhibition without using the all-ball fouls rule in a match with Caras. If the kind of foul that wouldn't be a foul unless this rule was in effect were to be found on careful inspection of the video, would it invalidate the run?

Consultation?
Some have commented that shots may have been discussed along the way. If one or more positions were discussed with others who were present, does it invalidate the run?

Was this Really an Exhibition?
Some have taken note that the run began well before the poolroom was open to the general public. A case can, therefore, be made that it wasn't an exhibition run at all. Is a run that was only partially available for view by the general public really an exhibition run?

It's all very confusing. While I'm fully satisfied of the run's legitimacy, I don't want to be dismissive of those who are suspicious, but if it turns out that this was all a hoax and that the BCA endorsed a run that wasn't legitimate, it will be a sad day in our sport's history.

Finally, I don't feel that John's continuing delay of releasing the video to the general public should be viewed as making it more likely that there are issues with the run. The video belongs to John and his team and it is their right to handle its release (or non-release) as they choose.

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Confusion exists
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Confusion exists - 01-18-2020, 09:24 AM

The 'BCA' and two of it's staff members are entirely different entities. Only two 'BCA' members have viewed the JS626 video. This is a looonng way from The 'BCA' endorsed/certified the video as meaning much of anything pool related to the masses.
  
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01-18-2020, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xradarx View Post
The 'BCA' and two of it's staff members are entirely different entities. Only two 'BCA' members have viewed the JS626 video. This is a looonng way from The 'BCA' endorsed/certified the video as meaning much of anything pool related to the masses.
The press release confirming the veracity of the run was from the BCA, not from those who reviewed the run, so yes, the BCA itself has publicly validated it.
  
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01-18-2020, 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post

Was this Really an Exhibition?
Some have taken note that the run began well before the poolroom was open to the general public. A case can, therefore, be made that it wasn't an exhibition run at all. Is a run that was only partially available for view by the general public really an exhibition run?

.

This has always been my main concern. The very loose definition of an exhibition. I mean, if any player on this forum go to their pool room at the same time every day or week, and everyone is aware they will be there, is every practice run considered an exhibition run?

That sounds flippant, but the fact is that if any other player isnít afforded that same consideration then it starts to sound like the definition was stretched. Meanwhile, if I announce an exhibition at 7pm on a certain day, show up for a small crowd, and even when I bungle every shot and fail to make a single trick shot, you canít argue that it wasnít an exhibition. A poor one, but still an exhibition.

The whole situation is made certainly more complicated by the fact that most of the run wasnít even viewable for the public since the room wasnít open. I just think itís important that any player has the same opportunity to establish exhibition runs, world records or otherwise, and be able to advertise them as such. If a player came on the forum and said they made a 200+ ball exhibition run in the morning in front of some friends, people would still take issue with the classification. So with that in mind, I felt like the definition was stretched to make accomplishment more achievable.

I donít doubt the run is legitimate, and I canít and wonít diminish the accomplishment or itís importance. We are only aware of a few players who have broken even 500 balls, let alone 600 irrespective of the format or location. And just the numbers John was putting up prior to running 626 (multiple 400s) suggested that a 526+ run was inevitable. In fact Iím convinced that nerves are what ended most of his 400 ball runs.

Anyhow, itís not up to me to determine whether it is a record that supplants Mosconiís 526. But if it were, Iíd probably put it in itís own category. There should be categories for filmed practice runs, exhibition runs (with clear definitions) and competition/match runs.


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01-18-2020, 03:14 PM

Some interesting points brought up in these recent posts:
1. All fouls: While players of Willie’s generation always played that way, if during an exhibition (and on a record-setting # run), if he HAD inadvertently touched an OB, would he likely have called a foul on himself and stopped the run?
2. Both competition AND public exhibition generally involves an audience. Whether encouraging extraordinary accomplishment, or inhibiting it (nerves), should that be a specific category of achievement?
3. Public tables that are not freshly re-clothed generally have divots where the balls are racked. My experience is, that situation tends to keep the balls from spreading well after the breakshot. Were the balls racked at the foot on that 8’ table Willie played on? I notice John often racked his at the head, where the cloth was smoother.
  
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01-18-2020, 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
... I notice John often racked his at the head, where the cloth was smoother.
For his fourth set of tries, John was racking at the foot of the table. The camera was at the head end. In the previous tries at Easy Street, John had been racking at the head since it was a better position for the camera.

Personally, I think it makes no difference as long as it isn't switched during the run. The table had no ball return, so only the name plate made one end the head end.


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01-18-2020, 06:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Personally, I think it makes no difference as long as it isn't switched during the run. The table had no ball return, so only the name plate made one end the head end.
Agreed 100%.
  
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