I make 99.9% of my own so yes, I could ....but no, I won't.
You know I was laughing as I was typing.
Uneven points
- Thread starter octy81
- Start date
You know I was laughing as I was typing.
If you glue up the veneers while still full sheets and cut your strips after laminating then there should be no variation in thickness, so long as you dont mix batches. I use the miter method so maybe this is more of an issue when doing the stacked method because you are glueing one veneer at a time.
Delete...off topic
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A 1 thou radial error in the point depth, equates to an approx 0.15 inch positional error down the cue. So when cutting them, it is the end point that you want to make the same and use as the reference, the skinny bit. I don't make pointed cues, but have cut many splines on shallow tapered cores for plastic parts that have to look right. When you have a 1/4 degree taper, just setting to one depth and going for it is not going to work, even at 0.001mm makes a 0.23mm height change up the wall of the product and looks hideous. Of course it only has to bend or warp by the 1 thou and then there is all the unevenness back again and then some. It will be very difficult for the point to be both at the same height and to be the same width that is for sure. It is wood after all.
Neil
Neil
You cannot convince me that a guy will take pride and extreme caution in creating a playing instrument, only to drop the ball at the end and let slop be exposed forever under the finish, right next to where his name goes. Not a chance. If the cue looks sloppy, it's more than likely sloppy inside as well. IMO, attention to detail is a personality trait, not momentary or selective. Some guys care & some guys don't, and it doesn't take the market long to sort them out.
When I was buying cues, clean & precise point work impressed me, and pretty much always correlated with a very finely built cue. Sure it's only aesthetics, but the fact that the maker was able to achieve it meant that he cared. It's not a leap of faith to assume the maker also took such great care in every other step of the build. I brought that same outlook with me to cue making, only in reverse. Now I am nit picky about getting my points perfect because I want to show everybody how much I care, and hope they notice it enough to understand how hard I work on creating that cue. I don't want them to question whether or not I do a good job on the cue. That's not something that should even come up for thought. I want them to see the cue & immediately be struck by the apparent quality, so that they have full confidence in my ability. Sure that's probably a little delusional, maybe a bit fantastical, but it's what I want so it's what I strive for. I can't imagine other makers not feeling the same way, and if the times comes I lose that desire, I'll quit.
When I was buying cues, clean & precise point work impressed me, and pretty much always correlated with a very finely built cue. Sure it's only aesthetics, but the fact that the maker was able to achieve it meant that he cared. It's not a leap of faith to assume the maker also took such great care in every other step of the build. I brought that same outlook with me to cue making, only in reverse. Now I am nit picky about getting my points perfect because I want to show everybody how much I care, and hope they notice it enough to understand how hard I work on creating that cue. I don't want them to question whether or not I do a good job on the cue. That's not something that should even come up for thought. I want them to see the cue & immediately be struck by the apparent quality, so that they have full confidence in my ability. Sure that's probably a little delusional, maybe a bit fantastical, but it's what I want so it's what I strive for. I can't imagine other makers not feeling the same way, and if the times comes I lose that desire, I'll quit.
This is why long skinny points almost always require manipulation, no matter how precisely the cue was machined & assembled. People don't realize just how intricate & testy points can be. Your post does a good job of describing it. I do damn good work, precise, clean, but in most cues I do have some finessing to do on the points to make them visually perfect. Rarely do the stars align. It's not uncommon for me to grab the cue or the live center to re-position it while spinning. I'll do it as many times as it takes to get it as close to perfect as I can, which is usually not absolute perfect. A tiny bit off center can throw a point off considerably.
It is good you know you are close minded on this and admit you can't be convinced of something. I won't make my post to try and convince you, only to offer another take for anyone who cares.
I hate cues or shafts being out of round. It drives me nuts. The last partial I got from a well known low deflection after market shaft company was so out of round there were speed bumps when spinning it. I hate any blip in a butt or shaft you can feel when spinning it. Being out of round is a defect. No, you can't see it. No, it doesn't affect play. Uneven points doesn't affect play either.
Thus far the only points I have had in my cues were those in full spliced cues from other people's blanks. I have sanded some on the tip of a point after an intermediate cut to get a feel for how much sanding was required to make it recede. I was not comfortable with how much sanding was required on that one spot. When I final sand I work hard to sand equally all the way around the circumference of the cue.
For me, points should be evened up during the turning process and be as perfect as possible before the last very small cut. If I don't manually sand a tip of a point creating an out of round condition after a final cut, it doesn't make me lazy. It doesn't make me not care about the customer. It doesn't mean I don't take pride in creating a playing instrument. It doesn't mean the inside of my cues are sloppy. It means I feel out of round conditions are sloppy and I hate them.
When I final sand butts, I spin them on my mandrel at 1825 rpm with no tail stock support. I can let go of the butt and nothing happens. Same for shafts. I'm not suggesting I'm unique, just saying I take a great deal of pride in accuracy and attention to detail.
You said in the other thread you create a divot in the middle of the face of a ferrule/ferrule tenon because you don't trust your cross slide. How does this sound? "You cannot convince me that a guy will take pride and extreme caution in creating a playing instrument, only to drop the ball at the end when installing a tip and create a sloppy divot in the face because he doesn't trust his lathe to make one of the most basic cuts there is." Do you think that would be fair? Probably not.
I in no way mean to insinuate even points should be undervalued or uneven points should be overvalued. I simply disagree with your premise that anyone who doesn't do as you do doesn't take pride in his work/cue and doesn't care about his customer.
What?............
You'd need some pretty messed up equipment for .001 to equate to .150 difference inside of 12 inches.
Or maybe i don't understand what you're trying to say.
It's been a while since I have looked at my notes but IIRC, .015 depth difference equates to around .250 difference in point length cutting approx. a 12 inch length groove at .535 offset at the nose end. Your offset may differ because my fixture pivots at the end of the forearm, not at the end of the fixture.
You have made valid points (no pun intended) similar to the one I have made on the issue. You decided a true turn without any flats that are filled in with finish is more important to you than super even points. I respect that and the market will be the judge. A while back the market demanded white clean shaft wood. It did nothing to make the cue play better and now many cuemakers have retrained their customers to value stiffness and grain count over prettiness. You will have to retrain your customers on the advantages of not touching up the points. I used to be one who judged cuemakers quality on how clean their shaft wood was before I started building cues. And I still prefer clean shaft wood over shafts with sugar and mineral showing. I still touch points up and hold them real even. But I know it does not help the cue in anyway and is just done to please the market. I also use very clean tight grain shaft wood even though I know clean does not help the cue in any way. But since I handle so much shaft wood why not give the market what they want on clean and give it what I feel makes it play best in tight grain?
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Kelly, I like you but you are way out of line on this one. I didn't post my opinion for debate or looking for opposition. I promise you are far out of your league on this subject & don't know enough to grasp exactly what is being said, for the way it is being said. You are taking things completely out of context and making it personal when it's not supposed to be. Had you understood anything I explained earlier or anything conetip posted, you'd understand that cut angle determines how far off a point will be given a certain run out, and how much material should be removed to even them up. My post was made in the context of my cues, with the cut angle of my points. You are relating that with your failed attempt at accurately converting a full splice blank that probably wasn't accurate to begin with. However, you fail to realize the black & white difference between the two. You're trying to compare an apple with an orange. If I have to explain it to you, which I will not, then you probably don't know enough to be having this conversation in the first place. Had you even the smallest grasp of the subject, you'd realize that what you and I are saying is much closer than apart. But you don't so you don't, and here we are with you trying to slam me for my opinion on a subject you know absolutely nothing about. How ironic that i'm the close minded one here.
You may also do yourself a favor by understanding the why in my post on the other thread. Go ahead and be a fool in believing I have made it as far as I have, as long as I have, all without being able to make a face cut. That's absurd. You're allowing emotion to fog your intelligence. Had you simply asked, you'd no doubt have learned something about adhesion mechanics as it relates to interface given a certain type of glue. But you didn't. Rather you preferred twisting the context so you could make some profound point against me. Like I said, I like you as we have always had a cordial history & I appreciate your contributions to the craft, but you're out of line on this one. Our opinions are worth our actual experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Disagree & take offense if you must, but I'd like to have this conversation again when you actually have some experience making your own pointed cues. Until then.....
You may also do yourself a favor by understanding the why in my post on the other thread. Go ahead and be a fool in believing I have made it as far as I have, as long as I have, all without being able to make a face cut. That's absurd. You're allowing emotion to fog your intelligence. Had you simply asked, you'd no doubt have learned something about adhesion mechanics as it relates to interface given a certain type of glue. But you didn't. Rather you preferred twisting the context so you could make some profound point against me. Like I said, I like you as we have always had a cordial history & I appreciate your contributions to the craft, but you're out of line on this one. Our opinions are worth our actual experience and knowledge of the subject matter. Disagree & take offense if you must, but I'd like to have this conversation again when you actually have some experience making your own pointed cues. Until then.....
I have faith I will still be able to get near perfectly even points with the pointed forearm cues I have started. Regarding FS, after purchasing blanks that have the longest and the shortest points next to each other, and the width of the base of the points varying by as much as .100 within the same blank, I'm tooling up to make my own FS blanks.
Just shoot me in the head already. Why do I even bother? I need one of your rubber bands. :withstupid:
If those forearms have 4 points that nearly touch at the base, then yes I am positive you'll get very near perfect points very nearly every time. That's easy. Now make an 8 point cue where the long points finish out 11" into a 13" forearm with 1/2" gap between them for the short points rest. Let me know how close you get them, and then come back & explain that you didn't feather them in to perfection because you didn't want the forearm to be out of round. Crow has a peculiar flavor. I know because I have eaten my share. Seems you'll be having a big serving yourself soon.
I don't believe you have made it this far without being able to make a face cut. I used the exact same words you did regarding people who don't sand the tips of points, but for the subject of not trusting a facing cut. These are your exact words: "For whatever reason I never trust the lathe cross slide to give perfect flat movement for the face cut". I asked you if that assumption sounded fair. I even agreed it probably wasn't fair. I used the same words you did, but you didn't like it.
You are good at telling me what I know and don't know. On the other hand, I have said nothing about you, only that I disagree with your summary assessment of people who don't sand the tips of points to make them perfectly even.
Once again, this statement by you:
"You cannot convince me that a guy will take pride and extreme caution in creating a playing instrument, only to drop the ball at the end and let slop be exposed forever under the finish, right next to where his name goes. Not a chance. If the cue looks sloppy, it's more than likely sloppy inside as well. IMO, attention to detail is a personality trait, not momentary or selective. Some guys care & some guys don't, and it doesn't take the market long to sort them out."
I simply disagree with. I gave a personal reason why someone may not sand the tips of points to make them dead perfect but still take pride in their work. I don't believe slightly uneven points automatically means the inside of the cue is sloppy.
By the way, I didn't say I failed to accurately convert a FS blank. I said I sanded on a tip to see for myself how much sanding was necessary to cause a point to recede. I know how to cut a new center to even out points before the final cut.
Maybe a sticky needs to be made with boxes for the cue maker to check for us uneducated to know the defects we can expect at different price points.
You got jokes. Very nice. This thread needs one at this point.
Maybe there's a market out there for 3 long - 1 short pointed cues. I mean the 3 long - 3 short thing flew /shrug
All kidding aside I am going to bookmark this thread so I can revisit it after another 5 or 10 cues. There's a ton of good knowledge and hints in here but you honestly have to be at quite an advanced level of cue building to turn some of it into repeatable action. The more cues I make, the more my respect for you guys grows.
I agree...pick any cue builder in the world. An 8 pointer with those specs...guy has 3 forearms to practice on and I bet he can’t get point tips within 20 thou on a final turn without sanding. The wizard in Florida wouldn’t take that bet and his mill / fixture is probably tram and true to microns
Sizzle on the steak.....
It could be the nicest looking, well aged piece of meat in the locker but when they bring it to your table for you to saw into it better have had some heat put to it. And a little sizzling noise to boot.
Building cues is no different. It could be the nicest piece of wood the forest has to offer but sitting on a shelf, in square form, does nothing for it to the end user.
It's the sizzle that will help put you on a higher rung in the world of anything.
Make a list..........
even points vs. uneven points
glass finish vs. crappy scratch filled finish
nice cut threads vs. beaver chewed threads in shafts
glue line on ferrules vs. ferrule to wood transition
leather wraps that look like they are molded into place vs. crappy glued wraps
cleaned up under the bumper vs. compound caked under
polished joint pin vs. off the shelf crap
clean miters in box cues vs. miters that are hideously constructed
clean miters in points vs. miters that are hideously constructed
These are just few off the top of head that I've noticed over the course of wandering thru the gallery posts. Do any of them make a cue play any better or worse? That would be a no......but it can make a huge difference in the clientele you attract and ultimately says whether you will continue to be successful at the craft or just piddle pucking with wood and wasting a valuable exotic wood resource that is soon to run out.
If you fall in the latter group please find something else to waste your time on and allow those who care to purchase your wood collection. But then we might not want that either! :wink:
It could be the nicest looking, well aged piece of meat in the locker but when they bring it to your table for you to saw into it better have had some heat put to it. And a little sizzling noise to boot.
Building cues is no different. It could be the nicest piece of wood the forest has to offer but sitting on a shelf, in square form, does nothing for it to the end user.
It's the sizzle that will help put you on a higher rung in the world of anything.
Make a list..........
even points vs. uneven points
glass finish vs. crappy scratch filled finish
nice cut threads vs. beaver chewed threads in shafts
glue line on ferrules vs. ferrule to wood transition
leather wraps that look like they are molded into place vs. crappy glued wraps
cleaned up under the bumper vs. compound caked under
polished joint pin vs. off the shelf crap
clean miters in box cues vs. miters that are hideously constructed
clean miters in points vs. miters that are hideously constructed
These are just few off the top of head that I've noticed over the course of wandering thru the gallery posts. Do any of them make a cue play any better or worse? That would be a no......but it can make a huge difference in the clientele you attract and ultimately says whether you will continue to be successful at the craft or just piddle pucking with wood and wasting a valuable exotic wood resource that is soon to run out.
If you fall in the latter group please find something else to waste your time on and allow those who care to purchase your wood collection. But then we might not want that either! :wink: