What happened to the cue market lately?

Cuemaster98

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lol....that 100K cue was the best playing cue that I've put together to date and confirmed by many world champions. Jason Shaw wanted that cue from me...he became a formidable force after he understood what a high quality cue should play like and what it can do for his game :) Dennis Ocollo told me that this is a perfect cue for Eferen :) The unique shaft construction was done prior to Mezz introduction of the break shaft will a similar concept. The old curly purpleheart titlist is definitely unique one of a kind and it produced a resonance (sweet spot) that is just sick :) It's still for sales at 100K.....please do not paypal me....check works for me :)

If you didn't get that the 100K cue listing was a parody at the market listing cues for whatever the seller wanted....than you'll never will lol. As for selling 600 palmer for 2K, don't know what you're talking about, I sold a few Model J with Szamboti forearm for less than 2K...if those were 600.00...I would like to buy as many as you have :).

My infamous 100K cue:
750538484_o.jpg


Palmer cues that I sold for less than 2K:
849968007_o.jpg

853112152_o.jpg


Br,
Duc.



ideologist said:
Duc, it doesn't help the market when you list cues for $100,000 or try to sell $600 Palmers for $2,000...

Realistic understanding of cue values helps cues move. If you want your investments to gain in value, get more players into your pool hall. Jacking up prices doesn't magically get buyers.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Type79

Type79

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cuemaster98 said:
LoL...those Palmer cues I sold are high quality premium gus blank that are sought after by a lot of collectors. They were sold cheap IMHO.....how many ebony gus szamboti forearm do you see in this market?
Click to expand...

They actually hit the market quite regularly.
 
J

justinb386

Banned
watchez said:
Here is the problem -- for a several years people could bilk others out of their cues by saying, the economy is down so the price of cues is down. Now that the economy is back, they don't want to pay a premium price for cues they once stole. But that is why I like SW, cause even during all of that b.s., the prices never waivered and kept going up. Keep selling em for premium prices boys, when I am ready to sell, I'll be able to pay cash for that boat in Florida.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think the market has gotten a lot better since 2008 for example. I had a realy nice 1990 scruggs cue (that he told me would cost $2800 if ordered new) back in 2008 , that I paid $1500 for, and when I auctioned it off about 9 months later, it only sold for about a $1,000. It was super nice, with a lot of ivory in it. That tells you how poor the market was back in 2008. I bet the owner could get $2,000 for that same cue , if he were to sell it now.
 
Woof Biscuit

Woof Biscuit

and gravy
Silver Member
ctran said:
greed is main reason, buyers want more for less, sellers want to sell less for more.

then it's ignorance, if knowledge on cue market is spread by dealers, then buyers are just looking through a key hole. then a lot of cuemakers of great quality but low production went unnoticed.

then, it's fear, fear is a result of ignorance, the question "what if" popped up all the time, then comparison with other cues that fit their budget.

My interest in bigger cues ended last year when I had a chance to talk to a big cue collector. now I have clear criteria in mind that I will strictly follow when buy cues for me or my friends.

Yes, I may be having my contribution burying the already dead cue market.
Click to expand...

So true. And the folks that delete the asking price on their FS threads don't help. There's no frame of reference. You never know if you're paying fair market value; therefore, people don't buy for fear of being ripped off.
 
M

Menelaus10

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My observation is that when a nice cue comes up for sale at a fair and affordable price it quickly gets snatched up solely for the purpose of resale at an increased price. Once resold it often gets resisted shortly there after at even a greater price. The cue market, like any market, must experience ups and downs, but when cues make these forward leaps in price so rapidly the market can not sustain its upward movement, thus stagnation. For example: I purchase a cue a few years ago for $500 and I have since observed similar cue form the same maker selling for $2,500, frankly I don't believe values have risen along with the prices.
 
boyraks

boyraks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cuemaster98 said:
LoL...those Palmer cues I sold are high quality premium gus blank that are sought after by a lot of collectors. They were sold cheap IMHO.....how many ebony gus szamboti forearm do you see in this market?
Click to expand...



This is so true. A Gus blank assembled by any cuemaker are still being sought if any. It is still a Gus cue. IMHO.


Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums
 
Q

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Just because I don't have a giant marketing campaign to advertise how accurate my cues hit, or how low the deflection is, doesn't mean I ignore technology. Rather than preach a sales pitch to an interested buyer, it's easier to hand them a cue & let them decide for themselves. First thing they do is feel the joint, look at the finish, take in a glance of the overall cue. By this time they already have an opinion on quality. Then they start hitting a few balls and within a minute their mind is made up one way or another if it's for them or not. The best feeling ever, as a builder, is to see them look up from the table with wide eyes and the "OMG" look on their face. I know it's real because I didn't plant any seeds of advertisement, no power of suggestion, just quietly trusted them to make up their own mind.

As for prices being higher, it's just the way things are. I don't know any maker who's gouging buyers. I know of a few who are paying themselves nearly nothing so they can keep their prices low to move cues faster. No maker is becoming wealthy from cues. When I first started, I sold my PJ's for $350 with one shaft. Figured maples and nice rosewoods cost $5-$7ea. Ebony was expensive at $10. Today those prices are multiplied by 5x-10x, sometimes more, yet my cue prices have multiplied by less than 3x although I make a much better cue than I did back then. My power bill back then stayed lower than $100. Today i'm happy if it's under $300. To expect a high quality, relatively ornate custom cue to cost $500 is grossly ignorant to the cost of producing it. Simply put, greed is not the reason cue prices have risen.

The days of NEW high quality custom cues for $500- are gone, history. The market can crash completely & it won't change that fact. $500 is the new beginner basic cue cost. $1000 is the new normal for a NEW quality merry widow from a recognized name. It costs a lot more to makes cues today than it ever has before. If it's too high, then the market will cull some buyers, which will cause a cull in makers. The market readjusts itself according to the current conditions, regardless of what people want or how much they complain. It's a cold but solid truth.
 
M

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
good post

and high prices means the market is strong. and if people are buying these cues and reselling them it means the market is even stronger or someone has underpriced their cue.

just because a person complains they cant afford something that someone else can doesnt mean its overpriced or sellers are gouging anyone.
 
ideologist

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Type79 said:
Maybe he was talking about the Palmer Model D.
Click to expand...

Whatever that Titlist missing the foil is called. It's not even an early one.

$2000????

Ok, Duc is what's wrong with the cue market

Let's continue. Southwests with mismatched shafts? Classic.
 
cueaddicts

cueaddicts

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
There is a lot is wrong with the current cue market but a few of the biggies that come to mind are people who don't know much at all about cues are being seen as "experts" due to the ease of use on facebook. The other biggy is that people that should otherwise know better thinking a fully refinished and rewrapped example of a classic cue should be worth the same money or more as a 95% or better all-original example. Ignorance and greed are what is wrong!!!!

And for people thinking that because the economy is better now that in '08-'10, then the cue market is too.....hogwash. There is a lot more to it than that. In a nutshell, the market in the US especially is over-saturated, too much available stock for qualified buyers. The longtime collectors holding lots of cues are not buying anymore. They are looking to quietly unload. Also, too many Johnny come lately "cuemakers" wanting $500 plus for a converted sneaky pete.
 
Type79

Type79

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cueaddicts said:
There is a lot is wrong with the current cue market but a few of the biggies that come to mind are people who don't know much at all about cues are being seen as "experts" due to the ease of use on facebook. The other biggy is that people that should otherwise know better thinking a fully refinished and rewrapped example of a classic cue should be worth the same money or more as a 95% or better all-original example. Ignorance and greed are what is wrong!!!!

And for people thinking that because the economy is better now that in '08-'10, then the cue market is too.....hogwash. There is a lot more to it than that. In a nutshell, the market in the US especially is over-saturated, too much available stock for qualified buyers. The longtime collectors holding lots of cues are not buying anymore. They are looking to quietly unload. Also, too many Johnny come lately "cuemakers" wanting $500 plus for a converted sneaky pete.
Click to expand...

I agree on all points.

The first point deserves even more emphasis however. Some self-styled cue dealers are hawking cues by puffing descriptions with vague references to their condition, originality, or provenance and in some cases listing cues for a multiple of their value waiting for an inexperienced buyer.

I'm not talking about the seller who makes an honest pricing error or doesn't know a cue is not entirely original. I'm referring to sellers who use predatory tactics including misrepresentation and knowingly inflated prices.

I've talked to multiple buyers who were told they were buying a cue with original shafts only to find the opposite was the case, or found out after-the-fact a cue was missing parts.

A warning sign in any ad is "See pictures for condition." Right!
 
tonyboy59

tonyboy59

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A couple of members were quick to note the generational change and I agree. The collectors I knew when I was starting out collecting were in their 40's, 50's and 60's now they are in their late 60's, mid 70's and early 80's all looking at divesting themselves of their goods. These days, I see very little interest from the pool crowd in their 30's...the enthusiasm is just not there.

At this years Super Billiard Expo (and some years earlier) it was quite evident. When you look at who's buying and selling...very little youth. One guy who I respect in the specialized cue collecting business said it this way..."Predator cues, OB cues, etc...that's what they're buying". "If you don't believe me just hang around their table(s)".
 
skip100

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Part of the problem for the 30s crowd (of which I am one) is that it's extremely hard to find reliable and useful information about custom cues.

Predator's and OB's web sites are chock full of information about their products, which can be bought the same day. The dealers have guaranteed returns for chalked cues so if you don't like the cue you can return it.

Not to pick on Carmeli, but they are advertising on this week's California Billiards stream. Unlike many custom cue makers, they actually have a web site, and a nicely designed one at that. However, it's a strange combination of overwhelming and thin. Overwhelming in the number of choices and options, and thin in information about how the cues are made, why they're worth the price, what happens in the 24-month waiting period, etc. How do the different options affect gameplay and feel? Is it just for looks? There is a lot of talk these days about shafts and deflection yet there is no information about the maple shafts included with the cues. The only way anyone I know would write a check for $1700 to that operation is if they personally know someone who owns a Carmeli cue and had been able to try it out.

The entire custom cue buying process is a tough sell for a generation used to 1) lots of information about the products they buy and 2) the internet economy with its ease of returns and short lead times.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: KRJ
Bavafongoul

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The pool industry is in the duldrums and has been for years.
When the market is in a slump, it's hard to assess the factors.
Nonetheless, prices reflect how buyers assess the cue-maker.

Top name cue-makers are always in demand due to limited supply.
Next tier cue-makers are starting to charge more for their workmanship.
The pool community in general admires expensive cues but that's about it.
Spending thousands for a piece of adorned wood seems silly & ludicrous.

Then the ivory ban came along and now it's harder to order or buy what you
want and when you do, selling the cue also becomes harder and restricted.
So if you can't get what you really want in a cue, the tendency is to not spend
as much for a cue or not at all. This acts like a wet blanket and is depressing.

I am interested in ordering another cue but I am not going to drop thousands
for a cue that uses Juma or Elforyn for the joint and ferrules or inlays. I want
ivory and legally cirumventing the ivory ban for CA residents becomes a big
pain in the ass to accomplish so the tendency is just to acquiesce and abide
by the ivory restrictions and just hope it doesn't spread to other states.
 
Cuemaster98

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I did have a really nice Palmer Model D with 2 shafts that sold on ebay but not for 2K. The Palmer Model D didn't have any foil and actually looked like an older Gus cue and the cue played super solid (which made me wonder if it was really a Gus). It was also a purple heart titlist forearm and had a full original shaft that was near perfect along with another shaft. The cue was also straight which is not common and I think I did get a premium for it but overall...I got the right market price after all the fees. If you got a Model D titlist forearm with 2 shafts for 600, I would also be interested.

I think this kind of highlight the point that some people don't understand why some cues sell for a Premium. I mean if someone buys a cue you think is only worth 100 for 500, maybe the buyer has a reason he's paying a premium for it. I know there are a lot of people that can't understand why Ebony SW are selling for such high premium...but does it mean the seller or builder is gouging? Demand and supply explain ebony SW prices.

Eric makes a really good point about rising cost in cue building and this is true with everything else now a day....100 used to buy me lots more grocery that lasted a week but now I'll be lucky if I can get away with 300 a week. The point is just because you don't understand why custom cost so much more than a production cue, don't write it off, give them a tried and maybe you'll understand why collector and players are willing to pay the money they do for it.




Type79 said:
Maybe he was talking about the Palmer Model D.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Cuemaster98

Cuemaster98

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you think about it, marketing or branding is the biggest problem for custom cue builders. A lot of custom cue builders don't market their cues and rely on word of mouth for marketing and personal testimony from the players. The quality of their cues is also marketed by their dealers and reseller. If cue builders expand their marketing budget, do you think they will sell more cues? I mean if they build a website, goes out to shows and sponsor tournament etc? If they go out more and speak about their design, playability, etc? To me, I think some of the more successful cue builders do communicate a lot of information to their buyers and justify themselves for the price they get for their cues.

Cue builders also like to sponsor players with their cues and I'm sure there are lots of posting about the effectiveness of this marketing effort. I do agree that there's not enough information about custom cues in the market for buyers to make an informed decision other than what the hear from other players, dealers and reseller, etc and what the see online (Facebook, Ebay, AZ etc).

When more people start talking about a specific brand of a cue, you'll have more people interested and that alone could spark a trend for their cues. This has happened a few times that I remembered on AZ with a few new builders that just certified themselves as quality cue builder literally over a few weeks. However, this only works if their cue quality and playability stand up to the hype.

Traditional marketing works, SW is a great example but I think not all of the premier cue builders get the same exposure as SW. I think some premier cue builders build cues mainly for collectors and some for players. All in all, branding is the key and in the cue market that can take a significant amount of time to build. If you look at the 2nd Tier cue builders list, 95% of them have over 20+ years in building cues to establish their brand. This fact alone is what I think a lot of new cue buyers don't understand and premium cue builders should market themselves around this point.
Once you have 20+ years is perfecting your cue, your cue's unique quality and playability are established.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top