using the 8 ball to pocket another ball

K

kevin23

New member
im new here, i lvoe playing pool. mainly play with friends. we use the billiards congress of america rules. i believe in it it says if you have 1 ball left before the 8 ball you can use the 8 as a sort of nuetral ball to help pocket the last object ball. now my question is when you hit the 8 ball and the 8 ball hits your last ball and you dont pocket it is it a foul? and if so does it warrant a ball in hand.

i ask because i did that and my friend just grabbed the cue ball and said "foul" you only can use the 8 to pocket it, you missed therefore it's a foul. to me how can it be a foul when the rule allows for the ball in that scenario to be a nuetral ball used to combo your last ball in.

thanks, and also if you could link me to the rule if you find it so i can show it to him. i dont mind using other rules as long as it defines the rule well.

and we use to play by house rules but stopped because it was getting stupid. lol you guys know how that is.
 
K

kevin23

New member
Txstang1 said:
If you hit the 8ball first, it's ball in hand.
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sorry i dont think im explaining myself correctly. in some rules. lets say all i have left is 1 solid and the 8 ball. i can use the 8 ball to try and pocket my last solid. but in this case i didnt and the 8 ball hit his ball. is that a ball in hand?
 
Bowmer

Bowmer

"Shooter"
Silver Member
Are you talking about hitting your object ball off of the 8 ball as in a carom shot ... using the 8 to make your ball?? I don't see any other way of using the 8 to make your ball and it not being a foul.
 
R

R3DS!X

professional failure
only if your using the 8 ball to carom your ob in. cue ball can't hit the 8 ball first.
 
DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
kevin23 said:
im new here, i lvoe playing pool. mainly play with friends. we use the billiards congress of america rules. i believe in it it says if you have 1 ball left before the 8 ball you can use the 8 as a sort of nuetral ball to help pocket the last object ball...
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Let me stop you right there. This is not true. Under BCA rules it is a foul if you hit the 8 Ball first unless of course, you are on the 8 Ball. You can never contact the 8 Ball first to make any other ball. This is true even when the table is still open before groups have been established. While in this case you can use a solid first in combination to pocket a called stripe, you cannot hit the 8 ball first to make either a stripe or solid.

BTW, the BCA has adopted the World Pool Billiard Association (WPA) World Standardized Rules in their entirety. Here's a link to the BCA rules and you will see whether the general rules or rules for a specific game, they are all on WPA letterhead:

http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54#generalrules

In particular, the BCA (WPA) 8 Ball rule you are asking about is covered here:

http://home.bca-pool.com/associations/7744/files/EightBall_January2008.pdf

Here's what it says under Rule 3.9 - Standard Fouls :

6.2 Wrong Ball First; The first ball contacted by the cue ball on each shot must belong to the shooter’s group, except when the table is open. (See 3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups.)
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Now, Rule 3.4 says:

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
Before groups are determined, the table is said to be “open,” and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is “open”, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.
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For further reference here's a link to the rules at the WPA website:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

Hope this helps clear it up.
 
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Push&Pool

Push&Pool

Professional Banger
Silver Member
kevin23 said:
im new here, i lvoe playing pool. mainly play with friends. we use the billiards congress of america rules. i believe in it it says if you have 1 ball left before the 8 ball you can use the 8 as a sort of nuetral ball to help pocket the last object ball. now my question is when you hit the 8 ball and the 8 ball hits your last ball and you dont pocket it is it a foul? and if so does it warrant a ball in hand.

i ask because i did that and my friend just grabbed the cue ball and said "foul" you only can use the 8 to pocket it, you missed therefore it's a foul. to me how can it be a foul when the rule allows for the ball in that scenario to be a nuetral ball used to combo your last ball in.

thanks, and also if you could link me to the rule if you find it so i can show it to him. i dont mind using other rules as long as it defines the rule well.

and we use to play by house rules but stopped because it was getting stupid. lol you guys know how that is.
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It all depends on the rule set you play by. Standard rules say Ball in Hand. There are certain rule sets (read: local/regional bar rules) which allow the cue ball to hit the 8, but it has to touch at least 1 rail or another ball first, otherwise it's not ball in hand, it's a LOST MATCH (yeah, we like playing tough :cool: ). But I've played rarely for quite some time, so I forgot some "little rules" and exceptions. Anyway, just make sure you precisely define the rule set you'll play by before the start of the match, and there shouldn't be any problems.
 
ChopStick

ChopStick

Unsane Poster
Silver Member
kevin23 said:
im new here, i lvoe playing pool. mainly play with friends. we use the billiards congress of america rules. i believe in it it says if you have 1 ball left before the 8 ball you can use the 8 as a sort of nuetral ball to help pocket the last object ball. now my question is when you hit the 8 ball and the 8 ball hits your last ball and you dont pocket it is it a foul? and if so does it warrant a ball in hand.

i ask because i did that and my friend just grabbed the cue ball and said "foul" you only can use the 8 to pocket it, you missed therefore it's a foul. to me how can it be a foul when the rule allows for the ball in that scenario to be a nuetral ball used to combo your last ball in.

thanks, and also if you could link me to the rule if you find it so i can show it to him. i dont mind using other rules as long as it defines the rule well.

and we use to play by house rules but stopped because it was getting stupid. lol you guys know how that is.
Click to expand...

The 8 ball is never neutral under any rule set.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Push&Pool said:
It all depends on the rule set you play by. Standard rules say Ball in Hand. There are certain rule sets (read: local/regional bar rules) which allow the cue ball to hit the 8, but it has to touch at least 1 rail or another ball first, otherwise it's not ball in hand, it's a LOST MATCH (yeah, we like playing tough :cool: ). But I've played rarely for quite some time, so I forgot some "little rules" and exceptions. Anyway, just make sure you precisely define the rule set you'll play by before the start of the match, and there shouldn't be any problems.
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This is one of the worst rules replies ever from Mr PoolKiller Under New Name. Never ever have I seen anyone play, even in a bar filled with drunk idiots, where you were allowed to hit the 8 ball first, much less have it count as a LOSS unless the 8 ball was pocketed after you hit it. I have seen people say you were not allowed to use the 8 ball at all even to carom a ball off it or in the middle of a 3 ball combo or it had to be made "clean", but not where just hitting it was a loss, or where you could hit it first with the cue ball.
 
P

poolguy4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The 8 ball was always neutral back in Pottstown PA.

No ball in hand either.

So...never say never.:wink:
 
Push&Pool

Push&Pool

Professional Banger
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
This is one of the worst rules replies ever from Mr PoolKiller Under New Name. Never ever have I seen anyone play, even in a bar filled with drunk idiots, where you were allowed to hit the 8 ball first, much less have it count as a LOSS unless the 8 ball was pocketed after you hit it. I have seen people say you were not allowed to use the 8 ball at all even to carom a ball off it or in the middle of a 3 ball combo or it had to be made "clean", but not where just hitting it was a loss, or where you could hit it first with the cue ball.
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I've had enough. I haven't seen this kind of abuse on any legitimate forum before. From this point on I'm going to report every single person who calls me that way to the mods.

Regarding your question, I personally found that ruleset quite common. Maybe not in the US, but here almost anyone agrees that direct contact between CB and the 8 is a loss. Whether you can hit it first or not, there are still arguements. Some players (mostly beginners and average) say that you can hit any ball except the 8 first with no penalty. I myself played that way back in the days when I was a newbie as well. Then, some of us punish direct contact with opponent's group, but allow it if the CB hits a rail first. Even serious tournament players here play that way. Now I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I think there's also a variant where you can hit only your balls first (this is the closest to US rules) but I don't know anyone who plays that way.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Push&Pool said:
I've had enough. I haven't seen this kind of abuse on any legitimate forum before. From this point on I'm going to report every single person who calls me that way to the mods.

Regarding your question, I personally found that ruleset quite common. Maybe not in the US, but here almost anyone agrees that direct contact between CB and the 8 is a loss. Whether you can hit it first or not, there are still arguements. Some players (mostly beginners and average) say that you can hit any ball except the 8 first with no penalty. I myself played that way back in the days when I was a newbie as well. Then, some of us punish direct contact with opponent's group, but allow it if the CB hits a rail first. Even serious tournament players here play that way. Now I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I think there's also a variant where you can hit only your balls first (this is the closest to US rules) but I don't know anyone who plays that way.
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Sigh.. let's see... WPA stands for World Pool Association. Not just America. Read the WPA rules please then come back and let us know what they say about hitting the 8 ball first when there is another ball from your group on the table. And how you play really has no bearing on what the actual rules are. I don't know of any "serious tournament player" in any country that use random bar rules unless they were playing somewhere where they were forced to. You have already seen posts from people in your part of the world that state that what you post is absolute silliness unless you are playing with beginners who learned the rules form overhearing other beginners.
 
S

Shaky1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I also have played in many bars in N.E. Pa. where the 8 ball was neutral. You could hit it first at any time to make your solid/stripe.
You always need to ask what the bar rules are before a game starts.
I will say that I have never heard of this one though? :)
 
Push&Pool

Push&Pool

Professional Banger
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
Sigh.. let's see... WPA stands for World Pool Association. Not just America. Read the WPA rules please then come back and let us know what they say about hitting the 8 ball first when there is another ball from your group on the table. And how you play really has no bearing on what the actual rules are. I don't know of any "serious tournament player" in any country that use random bar rules unless they were playing somewhere where they were forced to. You have already seen posts from people in your part of the world that state that what you post is absolute silliness unless you are playing with beginners who learned the rules form overhearing other beginners.
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I know the WPA rules and what they state about hitting 8 ball. The fact I don't play by them is another thing. As people here already told the OP what the WPA/BCA and some other rule versions say about 8ball, why would I repeat it? I just wrote about some additional rulesets I know about. The point is what you're allowed to do and what you're not is purely up to the ruleset you choose.
 
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