The No Handicapping Crowd Cracks Me Up

BasementDweller · Jun 30, 2016

I get a real kick out of all the amateur players that say things like, “Tournaments shouldn’t be handicapped.” Or, “If you’re not good enough – stay home.” The common theme is that if you’re not good enough you just need to practice more.

Those of you that are opposed to handicapped tournaments or even leagues, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that almost all sports in this country are handicapped in one form or another? When we start children out in youth sports what do we do? We divide them up by age. After just a few years, the better players will migrate to club sports where they will play against teams of similar caliber. As they get even older and they play team sports for their high schools what do we do? We divide them up by class. Now when someone plays on a state championship level team in one of the lower divisions, do you say to them “Well, you guys really didn’t accomplish much because you were playing in the Class B championship.”? I certainly hope not.

Even collegiate sports are handicapped by division. On and on it goes.

Professional sports aren’t handicapped though right? Wrong! Even there, you have limits on how good your favorite team can be since they are bound by salary caps.
I guess the only place left that the “No Handicapping Crowd” can point to is the other individual sports – like golf and tennis. Unfortunately for them, even there you will find different leagues and different competition levels.

So for all you anti-handicappers out there – lighten up a bit. There’s nothing wrong with handicapping. It’s everywhere in sports and it serves a very valuable purpose in our world. Without it, I’m afraid this game of ours would have died long ago.

BasementDweller · Jun 30, 2016

I should have thought about that more before hitting enter since handicapping and having different divisions obviously aren't the same thing.

Par for the course for me this week.

Where's the delete thread button?

justadub · Jun 30, 2016

BasementDweller said:
I should have thought about that more before hitting enter since handicapping and having different divisions obviously aren't the same thing.

Par for the course for me this week.

Where's the delete thread button?

In a sense, different collegiate divisions are a form of handicapping, as the smaller schools generally have a difficult time competing against the larger schools, thus DIv1, Div 2 and Div 3.

More to your point, pool has always been handicapped, its just been called "getting a spot". All the gamblers negotiate a spot. (At least to hear the stories told here, and in the pool rooms I've been to.) Very few will play straight up for the cash.

Allen Brown · Jun 30, 2016

Spot got ran over while playing in the street. That's my answer.

book collector · Jun 30, 2016

handicapped tournaments are only as good as the director or whoever is doing the handicapping . Between favoritism and downright stupidity, it usually ends up the same few sandbaggers win all the time and never get their rating raised, if they do , you never see them again.

pt109 · Jun 30, 2016

BasementDweller said:
I should have thought about that more before hitting enter since handicapping and having different divisions obviously aren't the same thing.

Par for the course for me this week.

Where's the delete thread button?

There is help for handicapped posters..

King T · Jun 30, 2016

???

Allen Brown said:
Spot got ran over while playing in the street. That's my answer.

So does that mean you don't ask for spots? or that you don't gamble?

Allen Brown · Jun 30, 2016

King T said:
So does that mean you don't ask for spots? or that you don't gamble?

I gamble. I don't give spots......because I'm nowhere good enough. When someone asks for one that is what I tell them. I usually don't take a spot either.

bdorman · Jun 30, 2016

Handicapping is simply a way to get more people to participate. Just about every amateur golf tournament I've played in is handicapped. They're just charity, business, etc. types of tournaments, but they rely on getting lots of people to enter. How many 12+ handicap golfer would enter a tournament that has 5-6 scratch golfers? Very few.

pt109 · Jun 30, 2016

A lot of AZers like to hear the action stories at the Rack in Detroit back in the day.
...I think at least 55% of the high rolling action involved a handicap.

there's no two people that can't make a fair game...if they're smart enough.

GideonF · Jun 30, 2016

Allen Brown said:
I gamble. I don't give spots......because I'm nowhere good enough. When someone asks for one that is what I tell them. I usually don't take a spot either.

Does this mean you limit your gambling to those who are very close to your speed? Or do you gamble even with much better players?

Allen Brown · Jun 30, 2016

GideonF said:
Does this mean you limit your gambling to those who are very close to your speed? Or do you gamble even with much better players?

I usually stay around my speed of players.....but when I'm feeling froggy I'll jump in the box with some one a couple of balls better than me for the challenge.

Mrdodd72 · Jun 30, 2016

bdorman said:
Handicapping is simply a way to get more people to participate. Just about every amateur golf tournament I've played in is handicapped. They're just charity, business, etc. types of tournaments, but they rely on getting lots of people to enter. How many 12+ handicap golfer would enter a tournament that has 5-6 scratch golfers? Very few.

I hear this type of analogy, a lot; but I would really like to see the stats on something like that.
I have a hard time believing that, in a charity/benefit golf tournament, a 12+ handicap golfer would have any illusion of winning, let alone refuse to show up because there is a few scratch golfers participating.

cubswin · Jun 30, 2016

I have no problem with handicap tournaments. Where I do have a problem is a non handicap tournament where people ***** and moan about a A player showing up to play.

duckie · Jun 30, 2016

I stopped them because I got tired of being punished for improving.

The more I improved, more games I had to give to a lesser player that didn't practice.

And in 9 ball I got tired of smack the shit out of the OB hoping it goes into any pocket.

Cracktherack · Jun 30, 2016

If you need a handicap, take off your skirt, step up and pay your entry fee like a man.

Colonel · Jun 30, 2016

Gambling is all about being able to determine the proper handicap. It's not how well you play, it's about how well you match up.

Tournaments, meh, not interested. Well other than hanging about looking for a proper opportunity to gamble.

Poolplaya9 · Jun 30, 2016

There are two sides to this issue. Side one says I should be rewarded for my talent, hard work, skill, time investment, etc--not punished for it. Lazy players (or even those that just don't have the desire or talent) shouldn't be rewarded for their laziness. Life isn't fair and people aren't equal and that is just the way it is and pool is no different. The best will and should win. All good points and all true.

Side two says the reality is that many people just aren't going to flat out donate when they have little or no chance. And for those that will, they aren't going to do it week after week forever. They eventually get tired of it and will stop coming at some point. And so the reality is that when a select few individuals always dominate the competition and nobody else even has a chance the competition starts to dry up. People stop coming. Events die off. Better to have lots of events with a more even playing field than to have few or even no events. Something is better than nothing. Pool is in dire straights as it is and we should do what we need to do to get all the participation we can even if it isn't always the most "fair". All good points and all true.

Like with lots of things, especially when both sides have really strong points, a compromise is probably in order. That compromise would be for an area to have some open events, and some handicapped events, so those of both sides have something to go to.

And a great compromise that I never hear being used is that when you do have to have handicapped events, make them to where the better player still maintains a little advantage in each match. If a dead even race between two opponents in a handicapped tournament match would be one goes to 9 and the other goes to 6, then instead make it where the less skilled opponent has to get to 7 to get the win instead of 6. That way the more skilled players are still favored and will win the events more often, but the lesser skilled players still have a chance and will win often enough to keep them interested and coming back. They know they are not as skilled and shouldn't win as often and will be fine with that as long as they know they actually have a chance and can snap off an event on occasion when they really play above their head or get all the rolls.

I have no idea why more handicapped tournaments don't do this where a slight advantage is still always given to the more skilled player. Seems like it would still keep the "I should be rewarded for my superior skill" crowd coming even if the format isn't their first preference (because they still maintain an advantage even if it is not their full advantage), and would also keep the "no way in hell I am going to be a dead money donating week after week with no chance" crowd coming even if the format isn't their first preference either (because they still have a chance and will get to snap off a win on occasion even though it won't be as often as the better players will).

BmoreMoney · Jun 30, 2016

Poolplaya9 said:
There are two sides to this issue. Side one says I should be rewarded for my talent, hard work, skill, time investment, etc--not punished for it. Lazy players (or even those that just don't have the desire or talent) shouldn't be rewarded for their laziness. Life isn't fair and people aren't equal and that is just the way it is and pool is no different. The best will and should win. All good points and all true.

Side two says the reality is that many people just aren't going to flat out donate when they have little or no chance. And for those that will, they aren't going to do it week after week forever. They eventually get tired of it and will stop coming at some point. And so the reality is that when a select few individuals always dominate the competition and nobody else even has a chance the competition starts to dry up. People stop coming. Events die off. Better to have lots of events with a more even playing field than to have few or even no events. Something is better than nothing. Pool is in dire straights as it is and we should do what we need to do to get all the participation we can even if it isn't always the most "fair". All good points and all true.

Like with lots of things, especially when both sides have really strong points, a compromise is probably in order. That compromise would be for an area to have some open events, and some handicapped events, so those of both sides have something to go to.

And a great compromise that I never hear being used is that when you do have to have handicapped events, make them to where the better player still maintains a little advantage in each match. If a dead even race between two opponents in a handicapped tournament match would be one goes to 9 and the other goes to 6, then instead make it where the less skilled opponent has to get to 7 to get the win instead of 6. That way the more skilled players are still favored and will win the events more often, but the lesser skilled players still have a chance and will win often enough to keep them interested and coming back. They know they are not as skilled and shouldn't win as often and will be fine with that as long as they know they actually have a chance and can snap off an event on occasion when they really play above their head or get all the rolls.

I have no idea why more handicapped tournaments don't do this where a slight advantage is still always given to the more skilled player. Seems like it would still keep the "I should be rewarded for my superior skill" crowd coming even if the format isn't their first preference (because they still maintain an advantage even if it is not their full advantage), and would also keep the "no way in hell I am going to be a dead money donating week after week with no chance" crowd coming even if the format isn't their first preference either (because they still have a chance and will get to snap off a win on occasion even though it won't be as often as the better players will).

I can give you at least a part of the answer why handicapped events cater to the lower skilled players - money. This is a fact, no its not a blanket statement but is it for sure true more often than not. The lower skilled players are the bread and butter for most establishments. They are way more like to 1) buy alcohol and 2) to buy way more of it. Same thing with " products ". The lower level players a really more likely to be buying the newest " thing " to help their game. The players that are very good players - there's a very good chance they are pool hall people and pool hall people are known to usually be very frugal. I'd also bet that the demographics match up better too. While the better players probably on a whole average older and in general older will have more discretionary money the younger ( less skilled ) group is more likely to spend their discretionary money on these types things / events.

deanoc · Jun 30, 2016

99% of every game i ever played involved a spot

all this blowhard big shot talk is just that
without a spot how can anybody play a better player
guys who don't like spots are afraid to gamble

colonel is right about this

The No Handicapping Crowd Cracks Me Up

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Rattling corners nightly

Pool Whale

AzB Silver Member

WO double hemlock

AzB Silver Member

Pool Whale

Dead money

WO double hemlock

AzB Silver Member

Pool Whale

AzB Silver Member

Just call me Joe...

GregH

AzB Silver Member

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall

Tellin' it like it is...

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member