John Schmidt has beaten Mosconi

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pre 1980's there were only 15-20 guys who had a legit chance of winning major tournaments.......less than that pre 1950's. Those guys never missed a ball :rolleyes:. They might not seem so great if >50 guys could shoot back at their asses.

We'll never know......what, 1-3 SP tournaments a year? I'd bet my cash that JS would do very well against all those guys day in day out. Who else has ?6 runs >400 and a 626?

+1

With the increased number of great players, and limited number of real 14.1 events. It's practically impossible to compare players based on accolades.

But a simple eye test should be all that's needed to know JS could easily compete with anyone from any era.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If Willie was alive today, he would show John respect for the run.

Then again, Willie was a good man. He was an honest man. He had character and ethics above the petty comments that some are spouting about John's run not being his or that.

Sad really.
 

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
If Willie was alive today, he would show John respect for the run.

Then again, Willie was a good man. He was an honest man. He had character and ethics above the petty comments that some are spouting about John's run not being his or that.

Sad really.

Yes many want to ignore his achievement is performance based.
They act as though he was only rolling 8 dice at once and coming up with all sixes, implying that his multiple attempts to beat the record was the feat and not the performance. I am personally happy that he smashed it by almost 7 racks.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to see too.

I knownone thing for sure though, if I was John, it would cost a "chunk" of cash to see it.

I'm with you Lou but, were not talking about a small thing here as you well know.

How well do you and u know? Hmmm, we know that we have run over 100 balls several times but have almost no chance of running 200 and 300 balls is, well, out if the question for us and everyone else at our level.

Now, having said the above, how often are we/anyone going to see the 14.1 record broken? That's a joke!

We both know that someone that runs 100 balls with trouble will NEVER run 200, you run 200 with trouble, you will NEVER run 300.....and so on...

Again:

I would show it if I was John but it would cost a fortune!


Jeff, I'm just not sure there's enough of a market to successfully monetize it after factoring production/distribution costs.

While there are lots of folks opining in these threads, how many of them actually play 14.1 competitively and could appreciate what's going on during the run other than seeing a massive number of balls being pocketed? I feel that there is a limited opportunity here. It'll be interesting to see how/if they can maximize it.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
About 15-20 years ago, either at the US Open or DCC, I was watching a match and a handsome young man standing next to me says "Duke Laha". I said to him "how did you know my first name was Duke?" (I had been using my middle name around the pool world for several years at the time). He went on to tell me that we played each other in a 9-ball tournament around 1995 near San Diego, CA. I remembered that it was a nice size tourney.....few pros including Kim Davenport, Mike Massey as well as most of the best southern CA regulars. He told me he was 22 years old then and had been playing for only a few years when we played.

Anyway, that young man was John Schmidt. So I can forever say that I have played the guy who broke Mosconi's record :thumbup:.

JS is easily top 3 best straight pool players of all time, IMO. Congrats, John.

DTL
by the way, I won that match :)


Top three of all time?

hmmmm, no.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pre 1980's there were only 15-20 guys who had a legit chance of winning major tournaments.......less than that pre 1950's. Those guys never missed a ball :rolleyes:. They might not seem so great if >50 guys could shoot back at their asses.

We'll never know......what, 1-3 SP tournaments a year? I'd bet my cash that JS would do very well against all those guys day in day out. Who else has ?6 runs >400 and a 626?


You need to go further back in history.

In post-depression America there were pool halls on practically every downtown block of many major cities. New York, Philly, Chicago, and even San Francisco. Smaller towns also had many rooms. And guess what? The players in those rooms were *all* playing 14.1.

In virtually any of those rooms you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a 100 ball runner, with many rooms being home to at least one 200 ball runner who would happily spot you 50-no count and relieve you of your cash. Other guys would walk in, run 100, and call it a day and do that *every day.*

Might there have been only a dozen guys who were true contenders for a title? Yes. But they were emerging from a universe of players with far greater depth of 14.1 knowledge and skill than today.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, John was feeling "zero" pressure from the first ball, all the way to 626. I understand now.


JS was in his home room playing under ideal conditions with equipment specially selected to make running balls easier and went at it for months.

He was not in a strange room, playing on a table selected by the management, in front of an audience and all the distractions that come with that, and taking just one shot at a high run.

Lou Figueroa
 
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logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
This feat is absolutely stunning.

Better than a 900 series bowling.
Better than 8 consecutive golf majors........etc.

This is the most amazing pool shooting achievement in many, many decades.

Can you imagine the pressure while shooting #526? Or #527? Or #600?
He will be recognized worldwide for this, written into history, all deserved.
Wow! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Will Prout

I'll give you the bowling thing but the golf thing I can't go that far. A golfer is at the mercy of what 100+ others do for 4 days. Maybe a long string of no bogeys or a few months of under par rounds would be a better match.
 

DTL

SP 219
Silver Member
You need to go further back in history.

In post-depression America there were pool halls on practically every downtown block of many major cities. New York, Philly, Chicago, and even San Francisco. Smaller towns also had many rooms. And guess what? The players in those rooms were *all* playing 14.1.

In virtually any of those rooms you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a 100 ball runner, with many rooms being home to at least one 200 ball runner who would happily spot you 50-no count and relieve you of your cash. Other guys would walk in, run 100, and call it a day and do that *every day.*

Might there have been only a dozen guys who were true contenders for a title? Yes. But they were emerging from a universe of players with far greater depth of 14.1 knowledge and skill than today.

Lou Figueroa

Folklore at best. Stories like this get embellished more and more every decade that goes by. You do know that Lassiter never missed a ball, right? LOL.

Slept much since Monday? You do know that after 4-5 days of no sleep a person can get delusional, and even psychosis can set in. You might slip up and say something positive about John's run. OTC melatonin might help....if not, better see the doc.

Just jerk'n yur chain a bit. This will make you feel better.....Mosconi was probably the best 14.1 player ever. My statement about John is my opinion.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I was being sarcastic! I understand pressure as well as anyone.

Let me ask you something? Which situation would put more pressure on you?

Playing in a world champ tournament or playing for "x".

BTW.....x = "most important thing in life to you".

I'm pretty sure Ray would trade being a two-time champ to add a record that would will stand for 75 to 100 years...maybe longer vs a title that is won by a different player every year.

I understand that consecutive or cumulative wins are different but, we are gonna have to agree to disagree Sir!

I admire some of your writing but, this isn't one of them. To me, your way off base.

In closing, I've had lessons from Ray, a three time world champion. I will not say in public what I heard him say about Willie's record but, I will say this, Ray knew he could NEVER run that many balls REGARDLESS of what was on the line.

Sorry, but I didn't realize you were being sarcastic. FYI, I knew Ray, too, though most of our encounters were in 1974-86, during which he lived in the New York metropolitan area.

OK to disagree here, for you bring a very informed opinion to the table and you can count me as a serious fan of your posts.

Not saying there was no pressure, for even records accomplished in practice like this one have pressure. Self-applied pressure, now matter how great, can hardly be compared to the pressure of having to perform right now when the stakes are high, where your next failure will often deny you any further chance to succeed. A soldier may be more motivated to shoot straight on a pistol/rifle range in training, and to set the world record for shooting at practice targets, but he'll be defined by what he/she does in combat.

Some guy made thousands of foul shots in a row, but he's not considered the best ever at it. Closer to home for AZB, some guy once hit thousands of spot shots in a row, but he's not considered the best at it either. These guys may have wanted these records with every ounce of their souls, but these remain achievements in practice, unworthy of great attention.

Regardless of what Ray himself felt, to argue Ray was incapable of a really long run is hard as he ran about 380 once, falling about ten racks shy of Willie's number. My opinion of Ray would drop if he said he'd trade in even one of his world championships for the record run in a noncompetitive situation.

Anyone, it's all a matter of opinion. Maybe you're right.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
If Willie was at his peak and played on the same table John just used and spent the same number of hours at the table as John has in his attempts, how many balls do you think this record would be?

Interestingly, their peaks more or less match. Mosconi's best pool was probably played in the late 1950's, while Willie was about 43 or 44 years of age.

My guess is 2,000.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Folklore at best. Stories like this get embellished more and more every decade that goes by. You do know that Lassiter never missed a ball, right? LOL.

Slept much since Monday? You do know that after 4-5 days of no sleep a person can get delusional, and even psychosis can set in. You might slip up and say something positive about John's run. OTC melatonin might help....if not, better see the doc.

Just jerk'n yur chain a bit. This will make you feel better.....Mosconi was probably the best 14.1 player ever. My statement about John is my opinion.


No.

It is 50 years of being a student of the game and spending time, back when I was in high school, at the San Francisco public library reading back issues of the "NYTimes" and "Sports Illustrated" to find articles on pool.

It is from doing papers in college on Ned Polsky's sociological study, "Hustlers, Beats, Others." It is having read Bob Byrne's "McGoorty, The Story of a Billiard Bum," Fat's "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies," John Grissims's "Billiards Hustlers & Heroes, Legends & Lies & the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt," R.A Dyer's "Hustlers Days, and, not to forget, Stein and Rubino's "The Billiard Encyclopedia, An Illustrated History of the Sport."

It is having been a subscriber to "Billiards Digest," "Inside Pool" and the old "The National Billiard News." It is having an extensive pool library, with almost everything published on pool, sitting right behind me as I type this. And it is 50 years of hanging around pool halls and playing in tournaments all over the country, playing and talking with players, going back to the days of the legendary Palace and Cochran's in SF where I grew up.

Lastly, I have often said records were meant to be broken. You lock up a player of JS caliber in a room with ideal conditions and let him wail away for months and he's going to do it, as would several other modern day players.

I sleep like a baby ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Interestingly, their peaks more or less match. Mosconi's best pool was probably played in the late 1950's, while Willie was about 43 or 44 years of age.

My guess is 2,000.

Willie f*cked up and should have never quit at 526. I just do not understand why someone who has just consecutively pocketed a record number of balls would just toss the stick down and walk away. As far as I'm concerned, his record deserves to be broken for his lack of caring. John cares....is passionate about it. He deserves it.

Was Willie's hunger pangs so bad that he felt he HAD to stop and go get something to eat? If I'm doing something I've never done before in pool, I'm not feeling anything but the desire to continue and see just how far I can go with it....hunger or not.

It sounds to me from what I've heard/read about it that Willie just got bored with it. Coming from an automobile assembly background I can understand how days and days of doing the same thing over and over again can wear on a person's mentality.

Maniac
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sorry, but I didn't realize you were being sarcastic. FYI, I knew Ray, too, though most of our encounters were in 1974-86, during which he lived in the New York metropolitan area.

OK to disagree here, for you bring a very informed opinion to the table and you can count me as a serious fan of your posts.

Not saying there was no pressure, for even records accomplished in practice like this one have pressure. Self-applied pressure, now matter how great, can hardly be compared to the pressure of having to perform right now when the stakes are high, where your next failure will often deny you any further chance to succeed. A soldier may be more motivated to shoot straight on a pistol/rifle range in training, and to set the world record for shooting at practice targets, but he'll be defined by what he/she does in combat.

Some guy made thousands of foul shots in a row, but he's not considered the best ever at it. Closer to home for AZB, some guy once hit thousands of spot shots in a row, but he's not considered the best at it either. These guys may have wanted these records with every ounce of their souls, but these remain achievements in practice, unworthy of great attention.

Regardless of what Ray himself felt, to argue Ray was incapable of a really long run is hard as he ran about 380 once, falling about ten racks shy of Willie's number. My opinion of Ray would drop if he said he'd trade in even one of his world championships for the record run in a noncompetitive situation.

Anyone, it's all a matter of opinion. Maybe you're right.

Stu, I'm not sure why you feel the need to demean John's accomplishment on here, but you obviously have. I won't try to qualify his run because imo the number 626 speaks for itself. I will only say that many great Straight Pool players all tried throughout their lives to make the longest run they possibly could and Mosconi's 526 was by far the longest witnessed run by any of them. And for 65 years it was recognized as the longest run of all time.

But guess what. That's all over now! His great run has been surpassed and no matter what you or anyone else says, once that video comes out the record will belong to John, and rightly so.

P.S. For decades people have questioned the legitimacy of Mosconi's run, including in threads on here. Yet, it was still accepted as the longest 14.1 run of all time, regardless of the circumstances. Now some are already being critical of John's run, finding reason to question it, but I suspect it will still be accepted as the new record regardless.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Willie f*cked up and should have never quit at 526. I just do not understand why someone who has just consecutively pocketed a record number of balls would just toss the stick down and walk away. As far as I'm concerned, his record deserves to be broken for his lack of caring. John cares....is passionate about it. He deserves it.

Was Willie's hunger pangs so bad that he felt he HAD to stop and go get something to eat? If I'm doing something I've never done before in pool, I'm not feeling anything but the desire to continue and see just how far I can go with it....hunger or not.

It sounds to me from what I've heard/read about it that Willie just got bored with it. Coming from an automobile assembly background I can understand how days and days of doing the same thing over and over again can wear on a person's mentality.

Maniac

It's well documented that Willie did miss to end his 526. You are correct, though, in noting that Willie didn't care much about the record, so John's passionate, and now successful, quest of topping Willie does seem fittingly rewarded.

This isn't the straight pool era. Few are playing much straight pool, and even fewer are trying for a high run, so John's record may live forever --- unless John himself breaks it.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Willie f*cked up and should have never quit at 526. I just do not understand why someone who has just consecutively pocketed a record number of balls would just toss the stick down and walk away. As far as I'm concerned, his record deserves to be broken for his lack of caring. John cares....is passionate about it. He deserves it.

Was Willie's hunger pangs so bad that he felt he HAD to stop and go get something to eat? If I'm doing something I've never done before in pool, I'm not feeling anything but the desire to continue and see just how far I can go with it....hunger or not.

It sounds to me from what I've heard/read about it that Willie just got bored with it. Coming from an automobile assembly background I can understand how days and days of doing the same thing over and over again can wear on a person's mentality.

Maniac


Willie missed on 527.

There was another run, in his hotel room when he was warming up for a televised match with Fats. Charlie Ursetti was rack man and witness and said that after Willie broke the balls wide open -- with less than 14 balls to reach 600 -- Mosconi put down his cue and basically said: See. Running 600 balls isn't so tough.

Lou Figueroa
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Interestingly, their peaks more or less match. Mosconi's best pool was probably played in the late 1950's, while Willie was about 43 or 44 years of age.

My guess is 2,000.

Excuse me, did you say 2000? I'm not sure what you're smoking but I want some! :wink:
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No.

It is 50 years of being a student of the game and spending time, back when I was in high school, at the San Francisco public library reading back issues of the "NYTimes" and "Sports Illustrated" to find articles on pool.

It is from doing papers in college on Ned Polsky's sociological study, "Hustlers, Beats, Others." It is having read Bob Byrne's "McGoorty, The Story of a Billiard Bum," Fat's "The Bank Shot and Other Great Robberies," John Grissims's "Billiards Hustlers & Heroes, Legends & Lies & the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt," R.A Dyer's "Hustlers Days, and, not to forget, Stein and Rubino's "The Billiard Encyclopedia, An Illustrated History of the Sport."

It is having been a subscriber to "Billiards Digest," "Inside Pool" and the old "The National Billiard News." It is having an extensive pool library, with almost everything published on pool, sitting right behind me as I type this. And it is 50 years of hanging around pool halls and playing in tournaments all over the country, playing and talking with players, going back to the days of the legendary Palace and Cochran's in SF where I grew up.

Lastly, I have often said records were meant to be broken. You lock up a player of JS caliber in a room with ideal conditions and let him wail away for months and he's going to do it, as would several other modern day players.

I sleep like a baby ;-)

Lou Figueroa

That's one heck of a back cover, inside the jacket, bio right there, Mr. Figueroa. Impressive and well written.
Now my next question is, when does the book come out? Do you ever have the thoughts of leaving your mark on the pool world by putting pen to paper?

I have a smaller shelf than yours of billiard books, and I always have room for another.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
I'm finding it a bit humorous that folks are trying to diminish Johns feat because it wasn't in a competition setting. Because if it HAD to be in a competition setting, the record simply would never be broken.

Would any of today's 14.1 tournaments simply let a player continue to shoot, perhaps for hours, if their winning run hadn't stopped yet? The races only go to 150 or 200 at most, am I correct? TD's would never let those runs continue, unless it was the finals, because they would need to keep things going, as they should.

On top of that, we'd have the additional burden of the run HAVING to be video'd in order to be considered valid (by some). That's not going to happen in these tournaments.

Challenge match to 1000? How many of those are going happen?

Kudo's to John.
 
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Klink

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who cares if he has 100 runs of 400+? His track record in competition is pretty forgettable, and how you play when someone is firing back at you is and always has been the measure of excellence in our sport. The level of 14.1 is quite a bit lower than it was during the straight pool era. Only a few play straight pool more than a few times a year. John hasn't done especially well competing in straight pool against his contemporaries, so he wouldn't figure to hold his own against the all-time greats of the discipline, now would he?

I seem to remember Mars saying anyone can bet from $10,000 to $100,000 if they think they're better than John

Until someone steps up and beats his record he should be considered the best ever.
 
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