A-joint questions

Alan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, when my forearm is cut to about 0.950 I join it to my handle section by fitting a tenon and using a screw. From what I gather, most cue makers wait to join their forearm to handle nearer to the finished diameters. I need to ask why.

What if the A-joint is done much earlier? If you still allow time between cuts (like a one-piece), does it increase the risk of warp?
Next, I was wondering if the tenon is really necessary. Has anyone just gone wood-to-wood between the forearm and handle and just used epoxy and a strong screw? Dumb questions?
 

BLACKHEARTCUES

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, when my forearm is cut to about 0.950 I join it to my handle section by fitting a tenon and using a screw. From what I gather, most cue makers wait to join their forearm to handle nearer to the finished diameters. I need to ask why.

What if the A-joint is done much earlier? If you still allow time between cuts (like a one-piece), does it increase the risk of warp?
Next, I was wondering if the tenon is really necessary. Has anyone just gone wood-to-wood between the forearm and handle and just used epoxy and a strong screw? Dumb questions?

The 2 end grains will not bond very well. The glue will seep into the wood through the end grain & leave a dry surface. You need the bonding of the side surfaces, to make a solid bonded joint. Those dry end grains touching is where the BUZZ comes from in a cue. I don't think it matters when you make the joint, as long as the wood is given the time to rest, between cuttings...JER
 

scdiveteam

Rick Geschrey
Silver Member
So, when my forearm is cut to about 0.950 I join it to my handle section by fitting a tenon and using a screw. From what I gather, most cue makers wait to join their forearm to handle nearer to the finished diameters. I need to ask why.

What if the A-joint is done much earlier? If you still allow time between cuts (like a one-piece), does it increase the risk of warp?
Next, I was wondering if the tenon is really necessary. Has anyone just gone wood-to-wood between the forearm and handle and just used epoxy and a strong screw? Dumb questions?

Hi,

Great question, here is what I have learned concerning the A-Joint connection, which I feel in the most critical operation in cue making.

On my CNC Floating point cues (not veneer point cues) I assemble the complete cue using a one piece solid core that is 3/4" and stepped to 5/8" at the A-Joint (12" back from the front) to the pin. I thread and epoxy a weight bolt behind the joint pin for weight purposes and it gives my cue a more forward balance by about and additional 2 inches. I like that feature of extra forward balance.

Before I assemble these cues I turn the forearm, handle, butt sleeve and 1 3/8" with the pin installed right after the first clean up cut taper pass between centers. The joint collar,decor rings and the butt cap are also glued and pressed during the assembly.

After the cue receives the forward weight bolt and the pin installation. I hog the initial taper down to about .900 at the joint collar and cut all my pockets and install all of the inlays. All of my tapering cuts are done between centers with the pin installed.

I hang the cue for at least a week and then take about 10 light passes on my butt tapering saw machine over the next week or so. I have never experienced a warping problem and I use gorilla glue for joining my laminated dowels to the cored parts.

Most of the wood has been hanging in my shop for a long time before it gets picked for a cue. I have never had any problems whatsoever!

I join my point cues with an 18" laminated dowel forming a tenon with a 7/8" exposure out of the cored handle. I epoxy this tenon with an a-joint screw and buzz ring. We also install an extra weight bolt behind the pin for the forward weighting on some lighter forearm materials. My joint dimension is usually at about .875 at this time.

I think most people assemble at a smaller forearm dimension because they don't want any point run out during the final tapering cuts after assembly. I install my pin before I cut my point grooves when my joint size is .925 and my points stay perfect when I tapper cut the forearm down to .875.

If you don't assemble the cue just right with perfect facing and the proper tolerances for gluing the A-Joint you can get a tiny wobble at the a-joint that can make your points move a hair when you taper down to your finial dimension.

If you assemble at .950 and get a little wobble, your points may go way off on you. After assembling the A-Jpint if I get a hair of wobble at .875, a point or 2 may move 3/16" or so but there's not a problem sanding them back that small amount to match with some 220 grit before sealing the cue.

Again for plain Janes or floating point CNC cues assembling at .950 or higher does not present any problems as you don't have to worry about points moving!!

Rick G
 
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Trent

Banned
Hi,

Great question, here is what I have learned concerning the A-Joint connection, which I feel in the most critical operation in cue making.

On my CNC Floating point cues (not veneer point cues) I assemble the complete cue using a one piece solid core that is 3/4" and stepped to 5/8" at the A-Joint (12" back from the front) to the pin. I thread and epoxy a weight bolt behind the joint pin for weight purposes and it gives my cue a more forward balance by about and additional 2 inches. I like that feature of extra forward balance.

Before I assemble these cues I turn the forearm, handle, butt sleeve and 1 3/8" with the pin installed right after the first clean up cut taper pass between centers. The joint collar,decor rings and the butt cap are also glued and pressed during the assembly.

After the cue receives the forward weight bolt and the pin installation. I hog the initial taper down to about .900 at the joint collar and cut all my pockets and install all of the inlays. All of my tapering cuts are done between centers with the pin installed.

I hang the cue for at least a week and then take about 10 light passes on my butt tapering saw machine over the next week or so. I have never experienced a warping problem and I use gorilla glue for joining my laminated dowels to the cored parts.

Most of the wood has been hanging in my shop for a long time before it gets picked for a cue. I have never had any problems whatsoever!

I join my point cues with an 18" laminated dowel forming a tenon with a 7/8" exposure out of the cored handle. I epoxy this tenon with an a-joint screw and buzz ring. We also install an extra weight bolt behind the pin for the forward weighting on some lighter forearm materials. My joint dimension is usually at about .875 at this time.

I think most people assemble at a smaller forearm dimension because they don't want any point run out during the final tapering cuts after assembly. I install my pin before I cut my point grooves when my joint size is .925 and my points stay perfect when I tapper cut the forearm down to .875.

If you don't assemble the cue just right with perfect facing and the proper tolerances for gluing the A-Joint you can get a tiny wobble at the a-joint that can make your points move a hair when you taper down to your finial dimension.

If you assemble at .950 and get a little wobble, your points may go way off on you. If I get a hair of wobble at .975, a point or 2 may move 3/16" or so but there's not a problem sanding them back that small amount to match with some 220 grit before sealing the cue.

Again for plain Janes or floating point CNC cues assembling at .950 or higher does not present any problems as you don't have to worry about points moving!!

Rick G


see and i was wondering why i was having such a hard time keeping my points even. I have been jkoining the forearm to the handle and sleeve earlier than that and usually have to shim the joint a couple times to even them up.

thanks.
 

sliprock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, when my forearm is cut to about 0.950 I join it to my handle section by fitting a tenon and using a screw. From what I gather, most cue makers wait to join their forearm to handle nearer to the finished diameters. I need to ask why.

What if the A-joint is done much earlier? If you still allow time between cuts (like a one-piece), does it increase the risk of warp?
Next, I was wondering if the tenon is really necessary. Has anyone just gone wood-to-wood between the forearm and handle and just used epoxy and a strong screw? Dumb questions?

I've done it both ways. My first cues were assembled early and then tapered down. Now, I turn my forearm and buttsleeve in one pass. The first 3-4 inches(18 in. stock) will cut the the butt sleeve, then the cutter drops in and cuts the forearm. I cut the handle seperately. Put everything together and then make my final passes. It sucks to have a piece of wood move or have some ugly mineral or other defect show up just as the cue is getting to final size. By cutting the individual components down to almost finished size over time, I figure I can outrun some of the chances of starting over due to warp or wood defects.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
So, when my forearm is cut to about 0.950 I join it to my handle section by fitting a tenon and using a screw. From what I gather, most cue makers wait to join their forearm to handle nearer to the finished diameters. I need to ask why.

Because if you keep cutting while the forearm and handle are seasoning ( taking out runouts/wobble till they stabilize ) the inside tenon and screw are no longer concentric to the outside .
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No Matter what size you join at, Most would do well if you get use to using a dial indicator. It's one of the most important tools in my shop. The -A- joint sets the pace for everything that follows. Seasoned wood, A centered -A- joint, Good glue, and time, Outside of what the customer does with the cue when he or she gets it, That's as good as it gets.
 

josie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rick,

I have tried sanding points even but then I can feel where the cue is out of round after sanding. How do you guys avoid this or fix it after your points are even?

Eric


If you assemble at .950 and get a little wobble, your points may go way off on you. After assembling the A-Jpint if I get a hair of wobble at .875, a point or 2 may move 3/16" or so but there's not a problem sanding them back that small amount to match with some 220 grit before sealing the cue.

Rick G
 

Alan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for all the replies. I think I get it now. Didn't even consider the concentric issue. The buzz (and glue adhesion) I thought about, but didn't really understand it - - now I have a better understanding. The risk of ugly wood hiding below an oversize blank is an issue with one-piece cues, but it didnt' even occur to me with a joined one.

I get it - - Thanks!
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I join my cues at .020" oversize, with a tenon. As for tenonless joints, I think it can be dones successfully if the pin is large in diameter, thus making up for the lack of tenon.
 

Sheldon

dontneednostinkintitle
Silver Member
I join my cues at .020" oversize, with a tenon. As for tenonless joints, I think it can be dones successfully if the pin is large in diameter, thus making up for the lack of tenon.
Same here...
And I second Mr. Webb's dial indicator advice!
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Heard that!!!
This 'getting old' isn't turning-out to be as much fun as I thought it would be.

BTW Mike, I like what you wrote about keeping the A-joint tenon centered.
You're absolutely correct, that's where it all begins.
Get the A-joint wrong and everything that comes after will be wrong.
 
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JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I join my cues at .020" oversize, with a tenon. As for tenonless joints, I think it can be dones successfully if the pin is large in diameter, thus making up for the lack of tenon.

Perhaps but I really don't know why I'd skip the tenon.
 
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