2020 Champion of Champions question

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Personally, I think the cue ball was replaced accurately by the referee after cleaning. It is possible that the referee judged that, after replacement, Yang barely touched the eight ball as he was lining up to shoot the seven.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Personally, I think the cue ball was replaced accurately by the referee after cleaning. It is possible that the referee judged that, after replacement, Yang barely touched the eight ball as he was lining up to shoot the seven.
He was certainly close to the 8 but I didn't see it move. I assume they did a video review which is what took so long. The ref was not well positioned to see that particular foul. Better would have been to our left by the side pocket.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
He was certainly close to the 8 but I didn't see it move. I assume they did a video review which is what took so long. The ref was not well positioned to see that particular foul. Better would have been to our left by the side pocket.

Touching the eight ball, even without moving it, would be a foul playing "all ball fouls."
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
We talked about this in the thread on this tournament. I believe he was called for a shot clock violation, despite the fact that it was the referee's fault that he wasn't able to shoot in time.
 

Joqpub4

AZB GOLD
Silver Member
That’s insane... she reset the clock. Talk about getting jobbed. I wondered if he even asked to have the ball cleaned, he seemed surprised when the reg came to the table (to me). I thought the momentum shifted a bit after it.


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PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
That’s insane... she reset the clock. Talk about getting jobbed. I wondered if he even asked to have the ball cleaned, he seemed surprised when the reg came to the table (to me). I thought the momentum shifted a bit after it.

The momentum most certainly did shift after that. Whatever the rule is for how many times a player can ask for the ref to clean the cueball, it should never be the case that the player receives a shot clock violation because the referee uses up the entire shot clock cleaning the cueball.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
The momentum most certainly did shift after that. Whatever the rule is for how many times a player can ask for the ref to clean the cueball, it should never be the case that the player receives a shot clock violation because the referee uses up the entire shot clock cleaning the cueball.

Right on, though I'll never weep for a player that ends up getting the worst of it when they unnecessarily delay play. Still, procedurally, the shot clock is supposed to be stopped when the referee stops play to clean the cue ball or attend to any other of their duties (such as getting the bridge or removing the rack template), so one must wonder whether the letter of the law was observed here.

A similar situation arose at the 2019 International when Jayson Shaw and Alex Kazakis met in a late round. The shot clock ran out while the referee removed the template because the shot clock operator had failed to stop the shot clock when the referee approached the table. After some discussion, it was decided that this would not be deemed a shot clock violation, so, perhaps, the same reasoning should have applied here.

These situations arise so frequently it's just sickening and these rules tend not to be discussed during player's meetings that precede tournaments.
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It was the shot-clock, I asked a guy who was there - a person who is responsible of the shot-clock is seated to the left of the camera, if you noticed right when he went down to shoot, he stood up looking at a person who is located to the left of the camera from our point-of-view, the player was confused from the look of his face as he thought the cleaning of the cueball should pause the shot-clock, but the guy responsible for the shot-clock did not anticipate the referee cleaning table, i.e. he did not pause the time.

Then the player sat on his chair waiting for some people outside of the camera frame who were discussing if they should pause the time or not, this part of the story is un-clear to me, but then after all of this the other player got cue ball in hand.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
It was the shot-clock, I asked a guy who was there - a person who is responsible of the shot-clock is seated to the left of the camera, if you noticed right when he went down to shoot, he stood up looking at a person who is located to the left of the camera from our point-of-view, the player was confused from the look of his face as he thought the cleaning of the cueball should pause the shot-clock, but the guy responsible for the shot-clock did not anticipate the referee cleaning table, i.e. he did not pause the time.

Then the player sat on his chair waiting for some people outside of the camera frame who were discussing if they should pause the time or not, this part of the story is un-clear to me, but then after all of this the other player got cue ball in hand.

If this is the case, and it's still not absolutely clear, I place the blame on the referee. When approaching the table to attend to any of their duties (cleaning a ball, attending to the template, getting the bridge, etc.), a referee is empowered to request that the shot clock be paused. If the referee failed to do so on this occasion, they are, in my opinion, at fault.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If this is the case, and it's still not absolutely clear, I place the blame on the referee. When approaching the table to attend to any of their duties (cleaning a ball, attending to the template, getting the bridge, etc.), a referee is empowered to request that the shot clock be paused. If the referee failed to do so on this occasion, they are, in my opinion, at fault.

Abuse of ball cleaning by some players to get extra time for a shot has led some tournaments to require that the cleaning time be included in the shot-clock time rather than stopping the clock. My thinking while watching this episode was that they were using that requirement.

From 3 days ago:

So, it looks like J.L. Chang beat Yang 11-9. Yang was up 7-4 and shooting the 7 ball, and after the ref cleaned the cueball they called a shot clock violation on Yang?

Is that what happened?

Yes, Game 12 was quite crazy. It had gone on for 17 or 18 minutes before the clock-violation discussion. Yang had fouled 3 times (intentionally once) and Chang had missed 3 shots. And, critically as it turned out, Yang had used his clock extension.

After Chang missed the 5 ball (his 3rd miss), Yang began running out. He made the 5-ball and the 6-ball and immediately asked for the cb to be cleaned. The ref took all but 1 second of the 40-sec shot clock to lift, clean, and replace the cb. When Yang got down to shoot, Chang pointed out something to the ref, presumably that Yang had already used his extension. After an 8-minute discussion that seemed to involve quite a few people, Chang was awarded ball in hand and ran out.

So, apparently, the time the ref takes to clean the cb must be included in the shot-clock time (not an unusual rule). But, geesh, she didn't even get the cb off the table until about 28 seconds had passed, and essentially used the full 40 seconds.
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
I thought he was ice man because he played even tempered

not slow. I almost yelled that during a match watching the cleaning.

Abuse of ball cleaning by some players to get extra time for a shot has led some tournaments to require that the cleaning time be included in the shot-clock time rather than stopping the clock. My thinking while watching this episode was that they were using that requirement.

From 3 days ago:
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Abuse of ball cleaning by some players to get extra time for a shot has led some tournaments to require that the cleaning time be included in the shot-clock time rather than stopping the clock. My thinking while watching this episode was that they were using that requirement.

From 3 days ago:

Wow! I just learned something. I have never been present at a tournament in which the rule was applied in this way. That said, I can see why some choose to use it, and can't say I disapprove. Thanks for the education.
 

spartan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Time foul

This was time foul which vacillated few aspects -time stoppage for ball cleaning, time extension, onus on time extension reminder.

This is what I gather :
-The rule here was no time stoppage for ball cleaning.
-Yang asked for CB to be cleaned.
-ref told Yang of the rule that clock will not be stopped (which I think is a good rule).
-Yang agreed. Ref cleaned CB and took around 30 seconds leaving Yang few seconds on clock.
-when clock ran out, ref restarted clock and Yang got ready to shoot
-Chang pointed out that Yang already used up his time extension
So everyone in room except Chang thought Yang still had an extension.

If I recall, Yang contention was that ref did not inform him that he did not have extension left.
Decision in end was that onus was on player himself to monitor and know whether he had any time extension left and onus is not on ref.
I think that is fair decision.

Moral of story is Keep your eye on the ball AND the clock :thumbup:
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
30 seconds to clean the cue ball. I call foul on the ref! :sorry:
Weak sauce by Chang as well.
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
30 seconds to clean the cue ball. I call foul on the ref! :sorry:
Weak sauce by Chang as well.

In fact, she took longer than that. It's clear from the video that Yang asked her to clean the cueball right after he shot, because she walks into sight when the clock is at 39 seconds, and is already on her way to cleaning the cueball. When she moves away from the table after replacing the cueball there is literally 1 second left on the shot clock.

I have no problem with a rule that says that the time the referee uses to clean the cueball counts on the shot clock, but if you are going to allow a player to ask the referee to clean the cueball then it should not be possible to lose your turn at the table because the referee literally takes up the entire shot clock so that it is impossible for you to shoot in time.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
30 seconds to clean the cue ball. I call foul on the ref! :sorry:
Weak sauce by Chang as well.
No doubt. Can you imagine if something like this happened in a televised/streamed major event?? Its like an NFL ref doggin' a call in the Super Bowl. Ridiculous
 
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