Hohmann's straight pool break down to the foot rail and back?

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
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Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way
 

mikemosconi

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Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way

There could be any number of reasons for this sort of break speed with the cue: 1. Individual preference of break style (Players choice). 2. Where the cue is hitting the rack on a particular break. 3. Weight of the cue ball vs. the object balls- lighter cue balls do less damage to the stack. 4. dirty balls vs. highly polished balls that break out easier. 5. clothe speed and or clothe nap conditions 5. Humidity factors also affect breakout results and can force one to hit the stack harder.

If you look at John Schmidt's recent attempts at Mosconi's run record you will see entire stacks open with a softer break, even when weaker balls in the rack are struck by the cue- he has a highly polished set of object balls, with very fast napless cloth and also admitted to heating the table to reduce humidity conditions - all factors that allow for more damage to the stack with less speed on the cue ball. In true competition you do not have the luxury of choosing ideal 14.1 playing conditions- so one may have to adapt to a more forceful break speed to open out balls to continue a run. Mosconi just "showed up" for exhibitions and accepted whatever the playing conditions were that evening, many times the cloth and the humidity factors were less than ideal; and still ran hundreds every time, even ran 526 once on an "un-doctored" table.
 
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Nostroke

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Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way

He has done it his entire career and he is no slouch. He likes his odds. Scratches happen using other methods as well. Still im not sure i like it. Mosconi use to just break out a couple/few balls at a time. That seems risky as well but he pulled it off time after time. Whatever you prefer and keeps you in the right frame of mind (confidence) is best i guess.
 
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skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
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He has done it his entire career and he is no slouch. He likes his odds. Scratches happen using other methods as well. Still im not sure i like it. Mosconi use to just break out a couple/few balls at a time. That seems risky as well but he pulled it off time after time. Whatever you prefer and keeps you in the right frame of mind (confidence) is best i guess.

yea those would be polar opposites. but i get a lot of spread using the regular stun medium draw break and i rarely scratch. this is i believe also the most common way to go about it. the only benefit i can see with his full draw break is the avoidance of object balls, which ofc is a good trade off

since i started the thread i've actually played a few racks and tried hohmanns break with success. it's interesting, i might implement it into my game after some experimenting
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
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Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way


Gets a good spread and lowers his odds of scratching.

And it's actually not too hard to do.

Lou Figueroa
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way
For those side of the pack break shots, I seem to recall Ray Martin stressed to me during a lesson that if the cue ball is headed in to either of the top 2 balls in the pack, you needed to apply some draw to extract the cue ball from the pack, but if it's headed in to the bottom 2 balls, you're better off using follow. The problem for me with draw option has always been controlling that draw. Even when I'm trying to just draw it enough to get the cue ball back to the middle of the table, I either fail to draw it enough and leave it stuck to the pack, or I draw it too much and end up way down near the end rail with a long, tough shot.

I assume Thorsten does this break with extreme draw to assure the cue ball doesn't end up way down near the foot rail, as well as reducing the likelyhood of object balls running in to and knocking the cue ball in to a pocket. Obviously it can bring the two head corner pockets in to play for a scratch, but it also should eliminate the side pockets for scratching - usually occurring when an object ball knocks the cue ball in a side pocket.
 
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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
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Oftentimes when using draw to free the cue ball after a break shot there is a danger of either using too little speed and getting stuck on the pack, or too much speed and drawing up table and leaving a long opener shot. By opting for a more forceful hit and drawing the cue ball up and down you eliminate both possible errors. You'll never get stuck on the pack and the cue ball will be coming back into the area of the rest of the balls. This isn't always correct, but can often be a great play that allows you to also spread the rack with confidence.

Comparing today's game to that of 70 years ago may not be productive. Quite a bit has changed in conditions.

Edited - just saw the post above from ChrisinNC, we're on the same page here.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Can somebody post a vid or diagram (or description) of this break? Is it the opening break or a mid-game break?

pj
chgo
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
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john coloccia

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I've heard Thorsten say that he does it because he got tired of getting stuck in the pack.

In an old Ray Martin video from a class in New Hampshire, he mentioned that he likes back of the pack break shots because it never fails to leave him a shot.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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Silver Member
full table break

Thorsten seems to break with more of a full table game in mind than most straight pool players.

His breaks are more likely to spread the balls across the entire table than those of many straight pool players. Fifteen balls on half a table encourages a break that will result in less congestion early in the rack other than the original stack, then a secondary break to open the rest of the balls or just breaking off a few at a time. Thorsten seems to favor an all offense scatter the balls as much as possible wide open style of game that puts more balls uptable on the break.

Seems like Thorsten makes things a little harder on himself but it is hard to argue with success!

Hu
 

AtLarge

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Hohmann's answer to why he often uses the power break is along the lines of -- "because I run more balls that way."
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
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Why? He does this fairly often. Breaks them hard as heck and cb goes up and down. What are the benefits of this type of break? Not colliding with object balls? The scratch risk is big, and i've seen him scratch twice in one match this way

To me, the 14.1 break is more or less self explanatory.

If CB is on rack-side of OB most will use from a little to a lot of draw. If OB is between rack and CB, well, most will use from a little to a lot of force-follow.

No matter which way..... stun, draw to follow, stroke speed and quality is what will determine end results.

Some players HAVE TO HAVE a good spread or their run is over, while other players don't really feel they HAVE TO HAVE that "perfect" break to be able to make it to-and-through the next rack.
 

Andrew Manning

Aspiring know-it-all
Silver Member
successful version: https://youtu.be/Koju7qfzdpE 27:34

scratch version: https://youtu.be/Koju7qfzdpE 31:32

there are probably better examples

On that 5-ball break shot, if you use follow you scratch in the bottom right corner a high percentage of the time. If you use stun, you end up stuck to the pack a high percentage of the time. Some players try to use slight draw to get out of the pack, but if you're hitting the ball hard to try to spread the balls well, you end up over-drawing to the head rail and leaving only tough shots a high percentage of the time.

Thorsten's solution is to just use more draw on purpose, so he can hit them nice and hard like he prefers to, and come back down table. Yes, you can scratch that way, but he feels it gives him his best chance to split the pack well and end up with a high percentage shot.
 
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