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09-09-2019, 07:41 AM

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Originally Posted by cardiac kid View Post
Brian,

So how much of that is not having an APA league in your room? Do you have BCAPL? USAPL? TAP? VNEA? Are all your leagues in-house? Do you have league play at all? If none of the above, where are your new players coming from?

Lyn
I'd never host APA. It's not what we do.

We get recreational players and new ones... though we aren't trying to lure new SL 2s to feed the machine.

Your room has an outstanding house league run by Bruce Prince. I want to try and emulate it. I have communicated with him several times. You see how successful it is, so you know there's a better way.

The APA leeches off tens of millions of dollars profit from the game. That money could have a huge impact on promoting the game professionally, amateur pool , youth programs and the family run pool halls in the country that have survived.

I entertain the idea of national leagues, but don't see the value of giving up 40 to 50% of players money to a league operator and a corporation. If I ever chose one it would be TAP which I'd run myself to keep player's costs down. We are close to central PA and I'm a huge Super Billiards Expo junky.

I have a stake in the game. With tremendous effort and a large initial investment, I built the room the way I wanted, for the kind of people I'm looking to host. Not for one instance did I expect or want to have APA. I'm not in this to get rich. We had no room in Syracuse at all following the fire. I wanted to have a stake and a say in how pool in my community would be...and I do.

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09-09-2019, 07:59 AM

Brian,

Sure do agree with you about APA leeching money from the players. Only thing they offer is a trip to Vegas for very, very few players. Talk about 1%'ers . IMHO, they screw all the others.

Yes, Bruce does a great job of promoting in-house leagues at East Ridge. Sure fills up tables on the traditional slow days. We also offer our players APA and BCAPL. You would be surprised how many of the "league" players are now participating in our in-house straight pool and soon to start one pocket leagues. Some even play in our Wednesday night 9 ball tournament!!! Cultivating them as "pool players" has sure helped add to our list of "regular" players!

Hope everything is well with you and your business.

Lyn


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09-09-2019, 08:26 AM

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Originally Posted by rharm View Post
If the APA is so full of sandbagging, is the blame on APA or is it on everyone in your local league. If you know players in your area are sandbagging/adding innings/not marking defensive shots, shouldn't you be reporting that to your LO?
I played APA two years, the second year I had a different "COACH"... He was "In It To Win It". After 2-3 times of asking me to "pull up", that was it. I quit. I told him that was a competitor, not an accountant.

I then tried BCA for a year, but then business got too busy & there was no reward at the end, to go to a tournament, because I had to work the tournaments. That was my last try. I tied two other guys for the Break N Run Trophy & got some money back, but I was through...




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09-09-2019, 08:31 AM

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Originally Posted by cardiac kid View Post
Brian,

Sure do agree with you about APA leeching money from the players. Only thing they offer is a trip to Vegas for very, very few players. Talk about 1%'ers . IMHO, they screw all the others.

Yes, Bruce does a great job of promoting in-house leagues at East Ridge. Sure fills up tables on the traditional slow days. We also offer our players APA and BCAPL. You would be surprised how many of the "league" players are now participating in our in-house straight pool and soon to start one pocket leagues. Some even play in our Wednesday night 9 ball tournament!!! Cultivating them as "pool players" has sure helped add to our list of "regular" players!

Hope everything is well with you and your business.

Lyn
You guys have a much better market in Rochester than we do in Syracuse. We are getting by for summer and now looking to come out swinging for the next 9 months. If my overhead wasn't so ridiculously low, I would never have tried.
  
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09-09-2019, 08:51 AM

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Originally Posted by SJpilot View Post
I think most people play because they enjoy it. Softball is the same way you pay all season and pay to travel, if you win you get a trophy and a weeks worth of drinking money but I don't hear a lot of people *****ing about the payout schedule. Entertainment costs money as does everything in life.

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Exactly. Our softball team, in 1996, won the USSSA state championship in IL, then when the National Invitational Tournament. Not one dime was paid out. We got some nice championship t-shirts and sweatshirts and some other swag. Got our entry paid into the World Championship in Dallas, but no airfare, no hotels, etc.

Yet, some how, we enjoyed every second of it. Yeah, someone got paid for running the local league we played in, and the state playoffs, I'm sure someone got paid for that too. Not to mention all the umpires got paid. And the facility got paid for letting us use the fields.

Never heard one person mention the money, or why folks got paid to run it all.

My only complaint with APA are the game rules. We can teach 5 year olds that 3 strikes and you're out, but for some reason, we need "special" rules for grown people in pool? That, I don't get.


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09-09-2019, 12:50 PM

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Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
Exactly. Our softball team, in 1996, won the USSSA state championship in IL, then when the National Invitational Tournament. Not one dime was paid out. We got some nice championship t-shirts and sweatshirts and some other swag. Got our entry paid into the World Championship in Dallas, but no airfare, no hotels, etc.

Yet, some how, we enjoyed every second of it. Yeah, someone got paid for running the local league we played in, and the state playoffs, I'm sure someone got paid for that too. Not to mention all the umpires got paid. And the facility got paid for letting us use the fields.

Never heard one person mention the money, or why folks got paid to run it all.

My only complaint with APA are the game rules. We can teach 5 year olds that 3 strikes and you're out, but for some reason, we need "special" rules for grown people in pool? That, I don't get.
I think that just about anywhere 3 strikes is an out, but playing pool rules can vary so
much from table to table that you probably need one set of APA rules to play their
game, so it may require some learning
Many different opinions about the APA. In my case it works for me, it don't work for
Brian. I get that, it's just not for everybody
  
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09-09-2019, 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celophanewrap View Post
I think that just about anywhere 3 strikes is an out, but playing pool rules can vary so
much from table to table that you probably need one set of APA rules to play their
game, so it may require some learning
Many different opinions about the APA. In my case it works for me, it don't work for
Brian. I get that, it's just not for everybody
The point is the rules should not be different in every pool hall in the USA. The APA rules are beyond stupid and there is not one logical reason for them. Not one. Would the APA lose even one league player if they played by normal pool rules? Of course not, why would they. They are adults and able to understand slop should not count, and that you can make a ball while playing safe. Even a SL2 can learn that.


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09-09-2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
The point is the rules should not be different in every pool hall in the USA. The APA rules are beyond stupid and there is not one logical reason for them. Not one. Would the APA lose even one league player if they played by normal pool rules? Of course not, why would they. They are adults and able to understand slop should not count, and that you can make a ball while playing safe. Even a SL2 can learn that.
I can view ve you a logical reason. Most apa rules were in force way before apa was formed and apa adopted those rules and has stuck with them . in my opinion other leagues are the ones that has dumbed down pool and made it easier to run out.

Now i hate slop myself so dont think i am defending it at all but thats the way the game was played way before apa was formed....so was other rules such as closed break and break from the kitchen on a scratch on tbe break.

I think they oughta do away with slop period....including 9 ball. The odd thing is when i brought up slop in 9 ball before people say....but thats the way its always been played.....news flash apa probably feels the same way with their 8 ball rules being thats the way it was always played.

Over the years leagues such as bcapl has changed ....or modified their rules to make it easier to break and run or run out after your opponent breaks and scratches.

And as for your comment concerning rules should be the same in every room .....it is with apa....bcapl gives each franchise the freedomto have whatever rules they want to play by. Hardly conducive to having a standard set if rules nationwide like apa.

Not downing bcapl at all as i think they are a fine organization and i respect what mark griffin does for pool but the first league i joined was bcapl and i thought playing for points in 8 ball.....made a stripe on the break but dont have a shot....oh well take solids then. Bih anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break......scratch on the 8 dont count as a loss. Stupid ass rules to a guy who had played 8 ball in a bar all his life.
  
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09-10-2019, 03:25 AM

I think most of the we hate league players and call us scum are the true gambling scum pool players who are the real people who are destroying the game. No one in Apa gives a shit about the money they are spending they are playing pool and having fun and unlike bca and acs you actually have to win your way their . Everything isnít always but money in this world. If your playing pool for the the money go find something else to do because your going to be very disappointed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
Exactly. Our softball team, in 1996, won the USSSA state championship in IL, then when the National Invitational Tournament. Not one dime was paid out. We got some nice championship t-shirts and sweatshirts and some other swag. Got our entry paid into the World Championship in Dallas, but no airfare, no hotels, etc.

Yet, some how, we enjoyed every second of it. Yeah, someone got paid for running the local league we played in, and the state playoffs, I'm sure someone got paid for that too. Not to mention all the umpires got paid. And the facility got paid for letting us use the fields.

Never heard one person mention the money, or why folks got paid to run it all.

My only complaint with APA are the game rules. We can teach 5 year olds that 3 strikes and you're out, but for some reason, we need "special" rules for grown people in pool? That, I don't get.


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09-10-2019, 04:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trob View Post
unlike bca and acs you actually have to win your way their .
In my view, the main reason for the "win your way there" is shear numbers. If APA is being honest, they have 250,000 member / players. If 10% showed up it might be impossible to run an event of that size. ACS, BCAPL and VNEA have roughly 50,000 members each. 10% of those IS manageable with the right venue.

Having played APA for eight years, I really like the "play what you make rule". Sure makes the game more difficult. Same with the "cue ball behind the head stripe" on an opening break scratch.

JMHO.

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09-10-2019, 04:51 AM

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Originally Posted by trob View Post
I think most of the we hate league players and call us scum are the true gambling scum pool players who are the real people who are destroying the game. No one in Apa gives a shit about the money they are spending they are playing pool and having fun and unlike bca and acs you actually have to win your way their . Everything isnít always but money in this world. If your playing pool for the the money go find something else to do because your going to be very disappointed.
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09-10-2019, 05:03 AM

The reason behind the rules in APA 8 and 9 ball randomizes who can win a match.

9 ball
no jump cues (have to jump with your playing cue)
no push out
point system (ball count) instead of game count.

8 ball
No open table after a ball is pocketed on a legal break
BIH in the kitchen if scratch on break
No called pocket (except for 8)
No jump cues

The 9 ball format IMHO is the toughest one for a higher skill level player to fade, as you can be in a race where if you give up 2 or 3 balls a rack you can lose. A dry break or a bad roll on a break can be a killer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
The point is the rules should not be different in every pool hall in the USA. The APA rules are beyond stupid and there is not one logical reason for them. Not one. Would the APA lose even one league player if they played by normal pool rules? Of course not, why would they. They are adults and able to understand slop should not count, and that you can make a ball while playing safe. Even a SL2 can learn that.


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09-10-2019, 08:15 AM

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Originally Posted by cardiac kid View Post
In my view, the main reason for the "win your way there" is shear numbers. If APA is being honest, they have 250,000 member / players. If 10% showed up it might be impossible to run an event of that size. ACS, BCAPL and VNEA have roughly 50,000 members each. 10% of those IS manageable with the right venue.

Having played APA for eight years, I really like the "play what you make rule". Sure makes the game more difficult. Same with the "cue ball behind the head stripe" on an opening break scratch.

JMHO.

Lyn
While that's true now (and the 250,000 number is accurate - I've got 2,000 myself and I'm just one of about 300 LOs), it wasn't always so. It's been "win your way there" since the beginning, so size is NOT the reason for it. But it's a good thing it's that way now. I agree with you though - it would take several weeks to run an open event these days.
  
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09-10-2019, 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
The reason behind the rules in APA 8 and 9 ball randomizes who can win a match.

9 ball
no jump cues (have to jump with your playing cue)
no push out
point system (ball count) instead of game count.

8 ball
No open table after a ball is pocketed on a legal break
BIH in the kitchen if scratch on break
No called pocket (except for 8)
No jump cues

The 9 ball format IMHO is the toughest one for a higher skill level player to fade, as you can be in a race where if you give up 2 or 3 balls a rack you can lose. A dry break or a bad roll on a break can be a killer.
Yeah, still not sure why 2 pool players came up with a new set of rules. Played for first session of 9b ever last session. It was OK. Still, too much sitting around for my liking, so I only play when they need me, I don't show up if I'm not shooting. I can stay home and shoot and drink better beer


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Radio silence over, time to clear some items up
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Exclamation Radio silence over, time to clear some items up - 09-12-2019, 09:43 AM

Folks:

Apologies I had not been following this thread of late. There was a period where it was asked of the team and anyone associated with the team (i.e. team-shirted spectators, like myself and one other person) to engage in a little "radio silence" while some back-channel discussions were being had about the post-DQ ramifications that were coming down -- i.e. the 2-year bans for the team members. The APA National office in St. Louis finally came back with a decision, and the 2-year bans will stay upon the team members, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the team was (and never had been) sandbagging. It was mentioned both in the initial meetings with representatives at Las Vegas upon delivery of the initial DQ decision, as well as communications afterwards, that the belief was not that the team was cheating, but that the team had an unfair advantage and that there was too much movement in skill-level of several players. (Again, no player was moved more than one skill level; it was that several players were all moved up one skill level -- too many players in their eyes.)

So, now that decision has been handed down and finalized, radio silence is now lifted.

I do not agree with the 2-year bans, even though it doesn't affect me -- I was a team-shirted spectator, remember; not an actual player on the team. But, after having witnessed what I did with my own eyes, I've decided the APA is not for me, and I've written my league operator to remove me from the 8-ball team (which has since been dissolved by the captain anyway), and request to have my APA player ID number inactivated. Back to local traveling leagues and tournaments for me, as well as a refocusing upon my true loves, 14.1 and one pocket.

Let's get down to business:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric. View Post
It has been established already. Sean is an SL6 in Apa 8 ball.

Eric
Ah yes, this is quite funny -- all the hoopla made about *me* when I'm not even a player on the team in question, was upfront the whole time about what my involvement with the team is, and was transparent through all of this. As well as the hoopla made about players on the team in question that weren't raised in skill level, like the team's skill-level 2, Ariah Parker. But leave it to the personalities on AzB to find someone or something to bash, even if it's off topic.

It's been a stretch of time since it was first posted, so it may be a helpful reminder to some what this thread was supposed to be about (the team didn't create this thread btw), and the clarifications about some of the misinformation that was being spread.

Post #166:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showt...67#post6461867

I encourage folks to review post #166, as it will help clear up many things. Not asking for any kind of pity, btw, as it is what it is. In fact, for me, it helps refocus me on the games I actually love, and I will be returning to the local tournament scene as well. There are positives here, and that's what I choose to take away from all this.

Best,
-Sean


"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." -Isaac Asimov

"They haven't got brains, any of them, only grey fluff that's blown into their heads by mistake, and they don't think." -Eeyore, The House at Pooh Corner
  
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