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View Poll Results: Should Transgenders Be Allowed to Shoot Pool Against Biological Women?
Yes 21 21.43%
No 77 78.57%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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  (#106)
couldnthinkof01
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11-15-2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DecentShot View Post
Of course the OP is, but it doesn't mean the topic shouldn't be discussed.
The topic at hand is, should transgender men be
allowed to play against biological women?

If it is a handicapped format does it even matter?

If it is non-handicapped, the only open women vs.
women format I know of is the WPBA and
they have a set of rules that apply to
such a situation.

Can anyone name an amateur league that
is women only without handicapping involved
and has no rules addressing this issue?
  
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Old
  (#107)
JazzyJeff87
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11-15-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
Point of clarification please...

Am I the extreme bully?
I think so . Maybe she read my FargoRate thread in the test area and was a bit ‘on edge’ due to possible allegiance issues.
  
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Old
  (#108)
DecentShot
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11-15-2019, 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by couldnthinkof01 View Post
The topic at hand is, should transgender men be
allowed to play against biological women?

If it is a handicapped format does it even matter?

If it is non-handicapped, the only open women vs.
women format I know of is the WPBA and
they have a set of rules that apply to
such a situation.

Can anyone name an amateur league that
is women only without handicapping involved
and has no rules addressing this issue?
Well, my answer is obviously no, or yes and forfeit any prize money, but still mostly no. The OP hasn't addressed a single real world concern so even if they are telling some form of truth...WHO CARES? Normal people would have moved on from a situation or if they really are angry..they name names. The victim seems to be protecting the victimizers (bullys) and remember if it doesn't make sense...it ain't true, and none of this makes any sense.
  
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Old
  (#109)
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11-15-2019, 12:07 PM

Legally you can stand by the the definition of "woman" and deny any male born into female born competitions, and vice versa. The Olympic committee is going through this process now and will eventually have all transgenders rightfully classed (which 99% of them want anyways, just a few trouble makers here and there).
  
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Old
  (#110)
Ghosst
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11-15-2019, 12:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentfromtoledo View Post
This ENTIRE thread should be deleted. This lady is full of it!
Maybe, but maybe not though. In any case the topic itself is interesting on a few levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali8675 View Post
...all because I challenged a Trans stating that she was a biological male playing in a WOMEN'S pool league!!!
That's not a pool issue, or a "MAN" issue. That's a personal issue that revolves more around you backing someone into a corner over your beliefs. To complain we have our own beliefs and that is not fair is a double-standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kali8675 View Post
... physical threats to my boys and my husband ... Just remember when your significant other gets beaten in pool by a trans!!! Remember all her hard work she has put into her game, remember her frustration declaring that it isn't fair!!!
Now you swapped genders here. You said your husband and now your husband is a she. So I'm a little lost but for the sake of the actual topic let's skip over that.

Is the issue here that you or your partner lost to someone who is trans-gender and you think that is unfair? Or is it that the idea of trans-gender is one you're not comfortable with?


Either way here's a short version of a long topic:


Your brain is a biological computer bathed in a chemical solution of hormones, nutrients, proteins, and other compounds. It is called, "plastic", in that it can actually change shape and rewire itself to suit the environment it is in, overcome damage, or learn new skills. (There is a Nova documentary on the shape aspect, I believe it is called, "How smart can we get?")

Now on the issue of sex (rather than gender), your brain is pre-wired to be better at some things than others. That's where those hormones come in. So in a very general sense males are better with spatial reasoning and females are far better at communication. Through a lot of patience, time, and effort, you can actually learn to become better at some of those traits you might not have been given at birth.

Certainly there are great male authors, teachers, and lecturers. There are females who excel at sporting endeavors and hand-eye coordination. These are general traits and it is not absolute in which areas a male or female will excel. Of course, we are also capable of learning new skills and in so doing can shift what we excel at. You can in fact learn to become a surgeon and handle a scalpel with incredible dexterity despite being female. There is nothing that prevents it other than education and practice.

In the world of pool there are far more male players than female. That comes from our past as a race where women were thought less of because they were not hunter-gatherer's. There are female players out there who are great masters of the game though. Men have the advantage of spatial reasoning, of muscular strength, and of hand-eye coordination. We think better in patterns that involve math and physics from birth. But ... women can do the same things. Just as well.

No one is born with a cue in their hand. We all have to learn to play. To walk and talk. It all takes practice. Time. Effort.

There is nothing that prevents you, as a female, from being the best, no matter whom you are playing. If someone in your league is trans-gender they don't simply get a free pass to win. I have taught many women to play better and have never run into an issue that prevented them from winning because they have different genitalia.

What I have found is that women who have never entered that kind of arena before don't already have those neural pathways created in their brains and therefore it takes them more practice, more time, and more effort. Why? Because they have to first build the circuits that show them the patterns. That teach them the physics. That allow them to, "feel", shot speed. Then they have to learn the game, the shots, safeties, and so on, and so forth.

But no matter what, there is nothing that will prevent a female from winning.



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Old
  (#111)
Ghosst
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11-15-2019, 12:13 PM

For those that found that to be a wall of text too long to read, I might add a YouTube video about it at a later date. I will post a link here if Mike doesn't lock the thread.

I do think it's a topic worth considering if everyone is on an even keel.



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  (#112)
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11-15-2019, 12:29 PM

I wouldn't touch this poll with a 10ft pole ..


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  (#113)
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11-15-2019, 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by couldnthinkof01 View Post
Can anyone name an amateur league that
is women only without handicapping involved
and has no rules addressing this issue?
ACS state tournaments are strictly divided up by men and woman. Woman singles, woman team, senior woman, Jack and Jill division.... errr, Jack and Jack now


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Old
  (#114)
couldnthinkof01
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11-15-2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
ACS state tournaments are strictly divided up by men and woman. Woman singles, woman team, senior woman, Jack and Jill division.... errr, Jack and Jack now
As far as I can tell ACS uses the WPA ruleset.
The WPA rules say that they go by the IOC rules
in this matter.

ACS also has upper/ lower divisions
Masters/AA
A/B
Etc.
Which would constitute handicapping.

Scotch Doubles teams must
be one man and one woman
as per ACS website.

Last edited by couldnthinkof01; 11-15-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  
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Throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water
Old
  (#115)
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Throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water - 11-15-2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
ACS state tournaments are strictly divided up by men and woman. Woman singles, woman team, senior woman, Jack and Jill division.... errr, Jack and Jack now
Ever since the introduction of Fargo Rate, there has been this theme of getting rid of divisions that are divided by gender. The underlying assumption behind this push -- is that the playing field between men and women is level. So why really separate a man with a FR of 500 from a woman with the same rating?

Well, what if the woman who is a FR 500 -- has spent her entire life playing and working on her game, while the man she is playing picked up a cue last year?

This idea that men and women are on an equal footing at pool is just an opinion at this point. Now, my opinion is the opposite and it's just an opinion too, but the evidence from every other sport points toward men having innate advantages when it comes to eye-hand coordination. So at this point, I see no valid reason to force women to play against men.

Sometimes in our attempts at being egalitarian we end up making things worse for women and that's the direction we are headed in many areas, but hopefully not with pool.
  
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11-15-2019, 01:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniac View Post
I didn't vote, but this is my stance on the subject:

Let's play the "what if" game.

What if Lebron James started dressing like a woman, donned a wig, shaved all the hair off of his body, got fake breasts, and then announced that he now identified as a woman. Now, supposed he signed a free-agent contract with a Women's National Basketball Association team.

Would that be fair....or right???

To go a step further…..what if five NBA all-star caliber players did the same thing and free-agented themselves onto the same team.

How would that work out for the WNBA league???

I don't want to hear any BS about how I'm comparing apples to oranges. Once a precedent is set, it's hard to get it changed. It needs to stop.....NOW, this practice of those born with penises to be allowed to participate in women's sports activities.

Maniac
Perhaps the league names could be changed from Mens and Womens.

To 'with c#cks' and 'c#ckless'.

Then someone would need to go a bit further than just putting on a wig and dress
  
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11-15-2019, 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BasementDweller View Post
Well, what if the woman who is a FR 500 -- has spent her entire life playing and working on her game, while the man she is playing picked up a cue last year?
Well, what if?

When they play, it will be at even races, and each of them should win 50% of the time. Seems fair to me, what's the issue? He's obviously a quicker study than her, so 6 months from now he'll be spotting her, which will also be fair.
  
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11-15-2019, 02:30 PM

Just some generalization here...women almost never use an apostrophe when there’s no need for it. Transgener’s in...

But this has been fun and interesting
  
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  (#119)
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11-15-2019, 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tooler View Post
I wouldn't touch this poll with a 10ft pole ..
You got something against Poles, buddy?

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11-15-2019, 02:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by couldnthinkof01 View Post
The topic at hand is, should transgender men be
allowed to play against biological women?
In my opinion::

If the trans person has started taking the drugs to make the breasts grow so [s]he looks and dresses as a woman, then [s]he should be allowed to play.

If the trans person dresses or acts like a male, then [s]he should not be allowed to play.
  
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