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11-24-2019, 06:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Sometimes I feel like I am falling off the stairs.

I am just looking for a way to focus my efforts on speed control. Mostly for soft shots. It seems to me I hit a shot the same two times and one time I roll way too far. The next time I set it up and try to modify it just a little and roll way short. I was wondering what part of my hand, arm, is the thing I should focus on to fine tune them.

Maybe it is not muscle memory at all. Maybe it is visualization. I try to picture the outcome I want. Scott (if I understood him) is suggesting my focus should be on the finish. I assume that means the follow through. On really soft shots there isn't much follow through.
you need a mother speed
what i mean is when you shoot up and down the table what is your natural diamond speed?
from that you can determine you distance based on angle shot with stun english
after that you can add or subtract distance by high and low
i am not an instructor
jmho
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11-24-2019, 06:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Skip...In your heart you already know the answer...you simply cannot defeat physics (no matter what some pro player says). The dwell time is so short, between CB and cuetip, that the CB is already gone before you could physically 'flick' your wrist. The wrist is already a universal joint (like the shoulder), meaning it can move in any direction, so it's highly susceptible to changes in grip pressure, which can affect the outcome significantly. So timing becomes everything. It's already difficult enough to coordinate everything that makes up a perfect pendulum stroke, without adding crazy thoughts like "snapping your wrist"...sorry, but the CB is gone in a quarter of an eye blink...long before you could initiate a wrist movement, forward or backwards. That's physics. Stick with what I showed you. Take measure of your shooting template; revisit your entire routine...including the PEP. PRACTICE your Mother Drills (20 minutes, twice a day)! Like randyg says, "there's only a good stroke and a bad stroke". Use what I taught you to make your 'good' stroke, your very best! Trust your stroke!

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
scott
dont you think the wrist "flick" adds acceleration to the the cue stick thru the cue ball
forget about whether its more or less complicated to control
and the extra acceleration can add more "juice" to the cue ball?
i am not an instructor and just asking
  
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11-24-2019, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
scott
dont you think the wrist "flick" adds acceleration to the the cue stick thru the cue ball
forget about whether its more or less complicated to control
and the extra acceleration can add more "juice" to the cue ball?
i am not an instructor and just asking
Bob's test (quoted below) shows that little speed can be added with the wrist. I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.

pj
chgo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Here's a simple way you can test this. Set up a shot where your wrist moves almost not at all and acts just as a hinge between your forearm and your cue. Maybe use one of those wrist braces that pretty much immobilizes things. See how far you can hit the cue ball up and down the table.

Next, keep your forearm perfectly still, and see how much distance you can get with just your wrist. You may want to build a small fixture or tie your lower forearm to the neighboring table, because most people move their forearms on the shot.

Tell us which one is more effective.
  
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11-24-2019, 09:37 PM

I can't believe you've worked with Scott Lee and are arguing the answer. Go to the workbook under mother drill 3. Grab your 25 pennies and dial it down to whatever you feel you need. Half speed? Quarter speed? Whatever. The finish is the same. Why add variables to a known solution?
  
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11-25-2019, 07:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Bob's test (quoted below) shows that little speed can be added with the wrist. I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.

pj
chgo
Finesse was always the focus of my question. I don't know where all the discussion on power came in.

My question is more simple then all the answers. It is simply "where do you feel "feel" for speed. Do you feel the sensation in your fingers, hands, wrist, or forearms. The answers seem to be don't think of that, just practice. The answers are about what types of drills to practice, not about where I should feel the sensations.
  
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11-25-2019, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Bob's test (quoted below) shows that little speed can be added with the wrist. I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.

pj
chgo
This is very close to what I am looking for. What should I work on to develop the control. Should I lock my wrist and use my forearm to take the hinge out of it. Or will I have better feel if I use my hands for these adjustments.
  
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11-25-2019, 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
you need a mother speed
what i mean is when you shoot up and down the table what is your natural diamond speed?
from that you can determine you distance based on angle shot with stun english
after that you can add or subtract distance by high and low
i am not an instructor
jmho
icbw
pm me if you wish
Scott gave me a very good reference of 1-9 with a half table lag being the 1. I have trouble with shots that are even less than that. When real finesse is needed I don't know exactly how to apply it. There isn't really much "stroke" to it. It is more of a tap or push.
  
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11-25-2019, 09:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Thanks Fran. If you have a chance, please see the comments I made to Bob Jewett. I must have given the impression I was looking for power but didn't mean to. I am looking for control of speed and distance. What muscle group should I focus on to develop "feel". It seems like it would be the wrist unhinge but perhaps I should keep that very still and consistent and use the forearm or even bicep muscles as the control.

I know I am not the only one to struggle with this. Even the pros have trouble with it. If not, every lag for break would be a tie and they would all end up back against the rail. It is crazy to see the best players in the world lag and end up a foot from the rail. Speed control is HARD.
It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?
  
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11-25-2019, 09:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
This is very close to what I am looking for. What should I work on to develop the control. Should I lock my wrist and use my forearm to take the hinge out of it. Or will I have better feel if I use my hands for these adjustments.
I think a little wrist movement might be better for speed finesse, but a locked wrist might be better for tip/ball accuracy. You have to find which works for you.

Quote:
where do you feel "feel" for speed
I feel it in the forearm and wrist, I think. Kind of a hard thing to pin down...

pj
chgo
  
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11-25-2019, 09:49 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?
I didn't have a problem with the term flick. Others questioned the concept seemed to have a problem with it. I just identified the hinging and unhinging as a part of the swing that clearly can add power.

Power was not my focus. It was a response.
  
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11-25-2019, 09:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think a little wrist movement might be better for speed finesse, but a locked wrist might be better for tip/ball accuracy. You have to find which works for you.


I feel it in the forearm and wrist, I think. Kind of a hard thing to pin down...

pj
chgo
I may be too "handsy" of the soft stuff. I am not sure my arm moves at all on a 1-2" take back. That is the root of my question. I just shot a bunch of little shots like a tiny draw off a rail to come back 3 inches. I am practicing shooting 5 balls in rotation starting with ball in hand. I set up what should be simple little tap shots then totally screw them up. My tap is simply not reliable. I would be better off with a half table shot.
  
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11-25-2019, 12:55 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?
I want to be clear. I appreciate your input and would not make a disparaging comment about anything you said.

I think an unintentional Flick would likely describe the wrist action for the type of shots I am talking about.

The power stroke CJ does is like the delayed hit in golf. In any stick and ball game "cocking" or "hinging" the wrist adds club head or stick speed at the bottom of the arc and it isn't a conscious motion or snap. It is simply angling the wrist behind the arm so momentum of the stick forces the wrist to straighten out as it passes by. This increases the speed of the stick at the bottom of the arc as the wrist catches up with the arm and adds some power. There is always a little bit of that in every shot, I was just wondering if I should try to take it out and shoot the really soft ones with a locked wrist and let the arm provide the movement forward. In putting in golf they teach a stiff wrist with no release.

I did a Google search on the subject and a post from CJ to this forum came up. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=294085. Again, this is kind of off the subject I was worried about. I just didn't want to ACCIDENTALLY be varying my power with too much wrist action on SOFT shots.

Last edited by skipbales; 11-25-2019 at 01:06 PM.
  
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11-25-2019, 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
I just didn't want to ACCIDENTALLY be varying my power with too much wrist action on SOFT shots.
[opinion]

The reliability of either motion (arm vs. wrist) will depend on how much you practice it, but I think precise control of slow speeds and short strokes must be more difficult using a longer lever (the forearm) powered by larger muscles. The hand/wrist is built for finer movement.

[/opinion]

pj
chgo
  
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11-25-2019, 05:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
[opinion]

The reliability of either motion (arm vs. wrist) will depend on how much you practice it, but I think precise control of slow speeds and short strokes must be more difficult using a longer lever (the forearm) powered by larger muscles. The hand/wrist is built for finer movement.

[/opinion]

pj
chgo
That makes sense to me. And I suppose everyone is correct, if I just set them up and shoot them enough I will improve and figure out for myself how it feels. I do like the soft hands approach over the stiff wrist. I might just be tensing up and kind of squeezing the stick.
  
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11-25-2019, 06:10 PM

skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...

Last edited by bbb; 11-26-2019 at 03:19 AM.
  
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