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11-26-2019, 07:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...
Wow. Thank you for the understanding and kindness in your post. Email and posting is always so cold but your genuineness shows through. I LIKE the advice. On the softest (like a putt in golf) there is such a tiny movement hand and wrist make the most sense. But on slightly longer shots (like a chip in golf), eliminate the wrist and adjust the take back and use the forearm. That makes sense to me.

Of course practicing this type shot is the key but I was looking for a place to start and all the help from this forum has helped me get a benchmark.

I am not likely to make it to FL but be sure if I ever am I will look you up. The same is true should you ever find yourself anywhere near Arizona.
Skip
  
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11-27-2019, 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Finesse was always the focus of my question. I don't know where all the discussion on power came in.



My question is more simple then all the answers. It is simply "where do you feel "feel" for speed. Do you feel the sensation in your fingers, hands, wrist, or forearms. The answers seem to be don't think of that, just practice. The answers are about what types of drills to practice, not about where I should feel the sensations.


Since when does one feel time or timing or rhythm in a particular muscle?

You have a range of motion with a beginning and end. The time it takes to complete the range of motion is the motions speed/velocity.

If you need physical representation of time to assist your speed control I suggest a metronome.

But thereís no feeling in muscles as per speed......

How does a runner know heís running 60 second laps?

A reference and practicing so ones internal clock affixes the tempo of the muscles movements to attain the desired speed/time.

Set range + stroke tempo practice = timing /speed development.

Use scales wit numbers not words like soft med hard. The more set numbers the more accurate the scale .



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11-27-2019, 09:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Since when does one feel time or timing or rhythm in a particular muscle?

You have a range of motion with a beginning and end. The time it takes to complete the range of motion is the motions speed/velocity.

If you need physical representation of time to assist your speed control I suggest a metronome.

But thereís no feeling in muscles as per speed......

How does a runner know heís running 60 second laps?

A reference and practicing so ones internal clock affixes the tempo of the muscles movements to attain the desired speed/time.

Set range + stroke tempo practice = timing /speed development.

Use scales wit numbers not words like soft med hard. The more set numbers the more accurate the scale .



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You may be right but I am pretty sure when a basketball player shoots a free throw he gauges the feel with his hands and wrists. Not likely he feels much in his toes.
  
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11-27-2019, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
You may be right but I am pretty sure when a basketball player shoots a free throw he gauges the feel with his hands and wrists. Not likely he feels much in his toes.


No sir it should be the subconscious.....and that shooting motion is generally speaking at all times the same motion fully completed to the shooting arms extension....smooth acceleration to the release. 10í 20í30í whatever same motion.

Speed and power in any of this is all rote memorization and building of familiarity through training. One canít consciously focus on the effort and timing and expect to accomplish it successfully. Thatís why we train by breaking down moves into components etc.




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11-27-2019, 12:55 PM

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Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Speed and power in any of this is all rote memorization and building of familiarity through training.
Yup.

Quote:
One canít consciously focus on the effort and timing and expect to accomplish it successfully.
Not without the training - but conscious focus can be an essential part of training.

pj
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11-27-2019, 01:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
No sir it should be the subconscious.....and that shooting motion is generally speaking at all times the same motion fully completed to the shooting arms extension....smooth acceleration to the release. 10í 20í30í whatever same motion.

Speed and power in any of this is all rote memorization and building of familiarity through training. One canít consciously focus on the effort and timing and expect to accomplish it successfully. Thatís why we train by breaking down moves into components etc.




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I was just razzing you a little. I get your point, it is very common thought here. Basically let the sub concious figure it out, set up shots and let everything work together. Good thoughts but I gained some other insights that are working for me to make that happen. see next post.
  
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11-27-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbb View Post
skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...
You nailed it for me. working on some shots this morning I gained some ground on all this. This is what I discovered.

1. For tiny soft shots like touch safeties where you barely roll the ball, maybe a few inches and nick or bump a ball. No forearm movement. Hands only, works best for me. The minute I felt my forearm tighten I hit too hard.
2. All other speeds up to very hard, no hand or wrist was more consistent. I hit a 2 diamond force follow off the rail back to a 3" circle. If I involved my hands or wrist I was all over the place. Mostly I came up way short. By taking a loose grip and using only my forearm I got very consistent. When force was involved the hands were more of a problem. This is more the shots everyone teaches and focus on. They represent a majority of all shots so the "just practice" advice is good here.
3. For hard shots, like the break, it takes co-ordination of all of it for the power.
4. What surprised me was the very narrow range where hands only worked best. It only helped when it was a tap type shot. I had one at league last night. I tried to roll my opponent's ball one inch into a 2 ball cluster of mine and let him have Ball in Hand. I had insurance balls and no way he could do anything with his ball. I hit it a TINY bit too hard. One of my balls moved out of the way and cleared a path for him and I lost the game. This is the only type shot where the feather soft hands (or even fingers) would have been a better choice. I only had to roll the cue ball 1 foot then barely touch his ball and I just could not hit it that soft. There is just too much power in any type of actual stroking motion for these delicate shots to work for me.

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11-28-2019, 12:31 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
You nailed it for me. working on some shots this morning I gained some ground on all this. This is what I discovered.

1. For tiny soft shots like touch safeties where you barely roll the ball, maybe a few inches and nick or bump a ball. No forearm movement. Hands only, works best for me. The minute I felt my forearm tighten I hit too hard.
2. All other speeds up to very hard, no hand or wrist was more consistent. I hit a 2 diamond force follow off the rail back to a 3" circle. If I involved my hands or wrist I was all over the place. Mostly I came up way short. By taking a loose grip and using only my forearm I got very consistent. When force was involved the hands were more of a problem. This is more the shots everyone teaches and focus on. They represent a majority of all shots so the "just practice" advice is good here.
3. For hard shots, like the break, it takes co-ordination of all of it for the power.
4. What surprised me was the very narrow range where hands only worked best. It only helped when it was a tap type shot. I had one at league last night. I tried to roll my opponent's ball one inch into a 2 ball cluster of mine and let him have Ball in Hand. I had insurance balls and no way he could do anything with his ball. I hit it a TINY bit too hard. One of my balls moved out of the way and cleared a path for him and I lost the game. This is the only type shot where the feather soft hands (or even fingers) would have been a better choice. I only had to roll the cue ball 1 foot then barely touch his ball and I just could not hit it that soft. There is just too much power in any type of actual stroking motion for these delicate shots to work for me.


Note....of all noted executions none could be considered the same across the board.

Only person I ever heard of change their swing all the time and champ on is tiger woods fwiw




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11-28-2019, 12:33 AM

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Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Note....of all noted executions none could be considered the same across the board.

Only person I ever heard of change their swing all the time (here Iím pointing at short term general shot to shot) and champ on is tiger woods fwiw




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11-28-2019, 12:34 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yup.





Not without the training - but conscious focus can be an essential part of training.



pj

chgo


Of course


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11-28-2019, 05:35 AM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
You nailed it for me. working on some shots this morning I gained some ground on all this. This is what I discovered.

1. For tiny soft shots like touch safeties where you barely roll the ball, maybe a few inches and nick or bump a ball. No forearm movement. Hands only, works best for me. The minute I felt my forearm tighten I hit too hard.
2. All other speeds up to very hard, no hand or wrist was more consistent. I hit a 2 diamond force follow off the rail back to a 3" circle. If I involved my hands or wrist I was all over the place. Mostly I came up way short. By taking a loose grip and using only my forearm I got very consistent. When force was involved the hands were more of a problem. This is more the shots everyone teaches and focus on. They represent a majority of all shots so the "just practice" advice is good here.
3. For hard shots, like the break, it takes co-ordination of all of it for the power.
4. What surprised me was the very narrow range where hands only worked best. It only helped when it was a tap type shot. I had one at league last night. I tried to roll my opponent's ball one inch into a 2 ball cluster of mine and let him have Ball in Hand. I had insurance balls and no way he could do anything with his ball. I hit it a TINY bit too hard. One of my balls moved out of the way and cleared a path for him and I lost the game. This is the only type shot where the feather soft hands (or even fingers) would have been a better choice. I only had to roll the cue ball 1 foot then barely touch his ball and I just could not hit it that soft. There is just too much power in any type of actual stroking motion for these delicate shots to work for me.
skip
glad i could help.....
larry
  
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Thanks - 11-28-2019, 06:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Scott Lee View Post
Skip...In your heart you already know the answer...you simply cannot defeat physics (no matter what some pro player says). The dwell time is so short, between CB and cuetip, that the CB is already gone before you could physically 'flick' your wrist. The wrist is already a universal joint (like the shoulder), meaning it can move in any direction, so it's highly susceptible to changes in grip pressure, which can affect the outcome significantly. So timing becomes everything. It's already difficult enough to coordinate everything that makes up a perfect pendulum stroke, without adding crazy thoughts like "snapping your wrist"...sorry, but the CB is gone in a quarter of an eye blink...long before you could initiate a wrist movement, forward or backwards. That's physics. Stick with what I showed you. Take measure of your shooting template; revisit your entire routine...including the PEP. PRACTICE your Mother Drills (20 minutes, twice a day)! Like randyg says, "there's only a good stroke and a bad stroke". Use what I taught you to make your 'good' stroke, your very best! Trust your stroke!

Scott Lee

Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Hey Scott, thanks for the input. Of course I never mentioned or considered a flick of the wrist nor the time on the cue ball. All that goes without saying. It is all about what you do to generate stick speed prior to impact.

What I discovered was the motion you teach is controlled almost exclusively by the forearm. It is also the most accurate method for a very wide range of shots. It works best for me if the muscles in the hand and fingers do not try to "help". I feel the muscles in my forearm constrict and lift (towards the chest as you demonstrate). The hands and wrist just need to be relaxed and allow the stick to force them to hinge and unhinge as needed to accommodate. That is the stroke and is by far the most useful stroke.

That said when you just need a tiny tap, the forearm is too powerful and does not seem to have a good range in the under 24" area. For that there is not enough take back or follow through to need it. Those shots are really finesse and (for me anyway) need the precision of "touch" controlled by the hands, wrist and fingers.

Finally, on real power shots combining the biceps, forearm and wrist in a coordinated motion seems to develop the most power. I see many (even pros) who employ the entire body. I don't think the body adds much, if anything, to the power. It is slow and ponderous, also difficult to manage. But precocking wrist and realeasing it through the down arc of the swing increases the stick speed for that portion of the arc. This is true in all stick and ball games. It doesn't affect the time at impact but increases the speed before and through impact. Speed = power (or distance). This is the most powerful and least accurate stroke. It is the least accurate because of all the variables, even without huge body movements.

The main take away from this discussion for me is how important keeping the hand and wrist neutral on most strokes is. It is so easy to unconsciously tighten the grip and squeeze or twist or force the cue forward and change the speed from what the shooter's subconscious intended. Just like it is important to reverse this process on a very soft tap type shot. No forearm there or you will have trouble hitting soft enough.

As always, thank you for your training and your support. Happy thanksgiving.
Skip

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11-28-2019, 06:40 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Very good observations. There are two distinct reasons for flicking the wrist during the stroke. One is for added power and the other is to keep the cue level during the stroke. (There are other reasons, like to stroke without moving the cue much due to a close shot, but the other two reasons are the main ones.)

One is a slower, more gradual movement as the cue is moving. That one is to keep the cue level. This isn't done during a pendulum stroke but can be done during a piston stroke. (I'm not happy with either term, but for the sake of everyone understanding the same thing, I'll go with them.) If the player uses a full piston stroke with a total drop, then it isn't really necessary to intentionally flick the wrist to level off the cue, as the drop will do that naturally. However, some players who partially drop, may execute that slow wrist adjustment to level off the cue.

As for doing it for power, it's a fast flick and the timing has to be perfect -- nanoseconds before impact.
Hey Fran, thanks, as always, for your insight on this thread. Happy Thanksgiving!!
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11-28-2019, 06:41 AM

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Also to add some fine tuning to speed control, especially for softer shots (although maybe that's not flicking).

pj
chgo
Hey Patrick, thanks (as always) for the input. Happy Thanksgiving!!
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11-28-2019, 06:44 AM

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Here's a simple way you can test this. Set up a shot where your wrist moves almost not at all and acts just as a hinge between your forearm and your cue. Maybe use one of those wrist braces that pretty much immobilizes things. See how far you can hit the cue ball up and down the table.

Next, keep your forearm perfectly still, and see how much distance you can get with just your wrist. You may want to build a small fixture or tie your lower forearm to the neighboring table, because most people move their forearms on the shot.

Tell us which one is more effective.
Hey Bob, thanks (as always) for the input. Your testing process is what I used to test my theories. You were exactly correct. The forearm is the Boss almost all the time.
Only on the shortest taps does the hand or wrist action take precedent. I also appreciate your advice not to worry so much about all that, just do it. Happy Thanksgiving!!
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