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12-07-2019, 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPoseidon6 View Post
So I'm new here but had to vent and get a seasoned opinion from everyone here after I put my two cents in about this, which I know has been beaten to death many times.

Maybe I'm old-school, but I don't see how tight pockets are better for the game. I've been playing pool (8-ball mostly with some 9-ball) for the better part of 30 years. I've played on all sorts of tables of all sorts of dimensions, pocket cuts, cloth, etc, and ran out my fare share over the years, won many games, blah, blah. And whatever.....

But I've noticed over the years that the trend is that so many players that own tables and even certain teams on league have been transitioning over to tables with tight pockets. Why is this? Is this really the right direction to go with the game?

I'm sure there are many players that will disagree with me, but in my experience, I don't think tight pockets are going to help the game and are really not for the American games, but rather it's something that lends itself to snooker or even Russian billiards. Those games are all about accuracy for the most part, and not necessarily about positioning AS MUCH as the American games (especially 8 and 9 ball).

Thing about playing 8-ball and (any rotational game especially) on a tight pocket table is that there is so much sacrifice for position in place of pocketing the ball, and the worst part about pocketing a ball with a deep shelf or tight pocket is the ultimate chance that the object ball will rattle in the pocket and sit there for the opposing player to have a freebe. You all know this, sure, but how can you just accept this as part of the game?

I've watched the Mosconi Cup for many years and have seen pro player's matches wasted by some nonsense pocket rejection. It's sad even on an amateur level because I've seen it on my home table that actually has tight pockets and on some public tables (certain bar teams tightened up the pockets at their place) and someone made a great shot and yet because there was spin on the ball, it got rejected and sat there in the pocket. How would anyone think this is even legitimate?

So many shooters nowadays think that the tight pocket is the way to go. I don't agree. And I don't even agree with that even on the pro level. You see that shot in this year's cup by Shaw that was clearly a made shot right down in the throat of the pocket and yet it was rejected because of spin on the ball to get position?

Even take Shane, (which is one of my favorite pro players). He said in TAR that the tight pocket table is really made for one pocket. I agree and feel that it's NOT meant for a rotational game, and even 8-ball at that.

What do you think?
Personally its very simple for me. At some point I'm going to step into the 100mph cage and when that happens if all I've seen are 70mph pitches, I'm screwed. So I try to only practice at 100mph that everything else seems easy. There are techniques of play that would make a lot of your concerns irrelevant. For instance, shoot soft and get plenty of angle, avoid side pockets whenever possible..etc.
  
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12-07-2019, 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by King T View Post
Why not just show up and play? Bowlers play on different oil patterns at every event and golfers play on all kind of crazy course layouts, both of those professionals just show up and play.

Lets play on different tables too, bring back AMF, Kasson, Connelly, Olhausen and then Gold Crown and Diamond. If you call yourself a professional, make the professonal adjustment, show up and play!
I think we have to be more specific. Oil patterns and extreme dog legs are more like the cloth. It would be like screwing with the Hole size in golf, which they do not do, or make the bowling pins bigger or less than 10, they don't do that either. Pocket size is in pool is more important than a golf layout or a cheetah pattern.
  
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12-07-2019, 05:20 PM

Let set things straight.

Tight pockets are not better for the game.....pool.

Larger pockets are just easier and pocketing object balls is fun.

Your hardest shots made on a table with big pockets will in all likelihood miss.

Now that’s not as much fun as making a run of the table which just is easier.

But....like with all things....the best competitors enjoy doing what others aren’t able.

Tight pockets distinguish your pool skills & most strong players enjoy the challenge, at least I do.


Knowing that my opponent has a higher probability of missing shots encourages me to try harder
and so running the remaining balls after my opponent misses just elevates my level of satisfaction.

I enjoy the most challenging conditions to compete in anything. I think it’s a stronger motivator to
succeed and so winning becomes all the more rewarding. But that isn’t good for the future of pool.

Here’s a comparable tip.....before you play from the championship tees at Pebble Beach, you better
be a single digit handicap because it ain’t enjoyable otherwise. I know that to be true. I had a NCGA
Index of 14.6 when I played the course. My twosome joined another twosome that was regulars at
Pebble and so we played from the back tees since it was their preference. That 14 handicap turned
into a round of 98 playing from the back tees which was not really an enjoyable round of golf for me.

I play golf to have fun and lots of people are the same way about playing pool. But if I had a handicap
of 4 like the other golfers I played with that day, my round of golf would have more enjoyable & lower.

Tight pockets are like the back tees at Pebble. It is definitely not for everyone and if you do not possess
a strong game, playing golf is just not as enjoyable as you’d otherwise prefer. The same applies to pool.
If we want the game to grow in popularity, tight pockets do not contribute to accomplishing that objective.


Matt B.


"My Pool Cues"

*Bob Owen Custom- Level 8 (s/d 4-24-16) - Flat Ivory Joint
*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 6 (s/d 5-4-16) - Flat Ivory Joint

*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 8 (s/d 2-23-15) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Ed Prewitt Custom '05 - Level 8 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Bob Owen Custom - Level 8 (s/d 5-4-14) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Tim Scruggs Custom (9-6-95) Level 7 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Runde Schon '85 Custom "R" Series (1 of 1)
*Palmer (Original) - '72 (All Cocobolo Wood)

Last edited by Bavafongoul; 12-07-2019 at 05:24 PM.
  
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12-07-2019, 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by garczar View Post
Tend to agree here. Adjusting is part of being a good player. What did Skinny Mick say, "Can't always get what you want....."?
He also suggested a great way of matching up...

"If you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need"



I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

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12-07-2019, 05:45 PM

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Originally Posted by tableroll View Post
Your opponent has the same difficulty as you do. No advantage to anyone!

I agree. I wouldnít use it as an excuse in a match. But equally annoying doesnít mean less annoying.


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12-07-2019, 06:11 PM

Faster cloth is what started the trend of tighter pockets in the late 80ís.

For one pocket tight pockets are cool.

What Iíd like to see is 21oz Stevens Cloth and big pockets again-ainít gonna happen.

Those are my brief thoughts, I could write pages about this topic-Iíll spare the noise and stick with what I said.

Best
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Just call me Fat-Lock

im getting old and sloppy....
  
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12-07-2019, 06:24 PM

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Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
He also suggested a great way of matching up...

"If you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need"

You may get what you need but, it may not be what you want..


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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12-07-2019, 07:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
You may get what you need but, it may not be what you want..
Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

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Straightpool_99
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12-07-2019, 07:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPoseidon6 View Post
So I'm new here but had to vent and get a seasoned opinion from everyone here after I put my two cents in about this, which I know has been beaten to death many times.

Maybe I'm old-school, but I don't see how tight pockets are better for the game. I've been playing pool (8-ball mostly with some 9-ball) for the better part of 30 years. I've played on all sorts of tables of all sorts of dimensions, pocket cuts, cloth, etc, and ran out my fare share over the years, won many games, blah, blah. And whatever.....

But I've noticed over the years that the trend is that so many players that own tables and even certain teams on league have been transitioning over to tables with tight pockets. Why is this? Is this really the right direction to go with the game?

I'm sure there are many players that will disagree with me, but in my experience, I don't think tight pockets are going to help the game and are really not for the American games, but rather it's something that lends itself to snooker or even Russian billiards. Those games are all about accuracy for the most part, and not necessarily about positioning AS MUCH as the American games (especially 8 and 9 ball).

Thing about playing 8-ball and (any rotational game especially) on a tight pocket table is that there is so much sacrifice for position in place of pocketing the ball, and the worst part about pocketing a ball with a deep shelf or tight pocket is the ultimate chance that the object ball will rattle in the pocket and sit there for the opposing player to have a freebe. You all know this, sure, but how can you just accept this as part of the game?

I've watched the Mosconi Cup for many years and have seen pro player's matches wasted by some nonsense pocket rejection. It's sad even on an amateur level because I've seen it on my home table that actually has tight pockets and on some public tables (certain bar teams tightened up the pockets at their place) and someone made a great shot and yet because there was spin on the ball, it got rejected and sat there in the pocket. How would anyone think this is even legitimate?

So many shooters nowadays think that the tight pocket is the way to go. I don't agree. And I don't even agree with that even on the pro level. You see that shot in this year's cup by Shaw that was clearly a made shot right down in the throat of the pocket and yet it was rejected because of spin on the ball to get position?

Even take Shane, (which is one of my favorite pro players). He said in TAR that the tight pocket table is really made for one pocket. I agree and feel that it's NOT meant for a rotational game, and even 8-ball at that.

What do you think?
In ever thread my pov on this has been consistent. I think tight pockets are bad for the game. I'm playing all of the tight pocket billiards games, snooker, blackball, chinese 8 ball, but these are different. US pool has a greater variety of games and a bigger repertoire of shots.

The tightest pockets (apart from Pyramid) are found in Chinese 8 ball. When a ball ends up near a rail, there is a very limited amount of things you can do to the shot. You can't shoot hard or be fancy, you just have to shoot smoothly and at a fairly soft pace. Now in the Chinese 8 ball game this may not be that big of a deal, you just need to play a nice pattern, or maybe play some sort of safe, but in 10 ball or 9 ball it's a big problem. Certain shots are not realistically makeable. The Chinese do play 9 ball on these tables, but it's a much different game. This is what happens if you over tighten the pockets.

I've heard all the brags of the "tight pocket" cowboys...To me it's all hot air. Show me some packages of 9 ball or 10 ball, not once but multiple ones, then I'll listen. It's like a shooter who can't hit the target at 200 meters trying to make the target smaller or moving it further away, it makes no freakin sense at all. Go ahead and play one pocket or banks, then, but don't try to make this small pocket bs standard for the game. Pool is supposed to be a game of creativity and big strokes, not punting safes. And if you don't listen, then get a freaking Chinese 8 ball table, and try to play some 9 ball on it. Maybe then, you'll understand how hoplelessly stupid this whole idea is.

All of you guys trying to make it look like you've "mastered" the game on normal pockets, why don't you play some Rotation? Plenty of challenges left in that game. Not going to see many packages there, even with 4.5 or larger pockets. Or transition to snooker, which is pretty much all straight shooting and safes. Go give the Rocket a beating, then come back and tell us "I told you so".
  
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12-07-2019, 07:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPoseidon6 View Post
So I'm new here but had to vent and get a seasoned opinion from everyone here after I put my two cents in about this, which I know has been beaten to death many times.

Maybe I'm old-school, but I don't see how tight pockets are better for the game. I've been playing pool (8-ball mostly with some 9-ball) for the better part of 30 years. I've played on all sorts of tables of all sorts of dimensions, pocket cuts, cloth, etc, and ran out my fare share over the years, won many games, blah, blah. And whatever.....

But I've noticed over the years that the trend is that so many players that own tables and even certain teams on league have been transitioning over to tables with tight pockets. Why is this? Is this really the right direction to go with the game?

I'm sure there are many players that will disagree with me, but in my experience, I don't think tight pockets are going to help the game and are really not for the American games, but rather it's something that lends itself to snooker or even Russian billiards. Those games are all about accuracy for the most part, and not necessarily about positioning AS MUCH as the American games (especially 8 and 9 ball).

Thing about playing 8-ball and (any rotational game especially) on a tight pocket table is that there is so much sacrifice for position in place of pocketing the ball, and the worst part about pocketing a ball with a deep shelf or tight pocket is the ultimate chance that the object ball will rattle in the pocket and sit there for the opposing player to have a freebe. You all know this, sure, but how can you just accept this as part of the game?

I've watched the Mosconi Cup for many years and have seen pro player's matches wasted by some nonsense pocket rejection. It's sad even on an amateur level because I've seen it on my home table that actually has tight pockets and on some public tables (certain bar teams tightened up the pockets at their place) and someone made a great shot and yet because there was spin on the ball, it got rejected and sat there in the pocket. How would anyone think this is even legitimate?

So many shooters nowadays think that the tight pocket is the way to go. I don't agree. And I don't even agree with that even on the pro level. You see that shot in this year's cup by Shaw that was clearly a made shot right down in the throat of the pocket and yet it was rejected because of spin on the ball to get position?

Even take Shane, (which is one of my favorite pro players). He said in TAR that the tight pocket table is really made for one pocket. I agree and feel that it's NOT meant for a rotational game, and even 8-ball at that.

What do you think?
In ever thread my pov on this has been consistent. I think tight pockets are bad for the game. I'm playing all of the tight pocket billiards games, snooker, blackball, chinese 8 ball, but these are different. US pool has a greater variety of games and a bigger repertoire of shots.

The tightest pockets (apart from Pyramid) are found in Chinese 8 ball. When a ball ends up near a rail, there is a very limited amount of things you can do to the shot. You can't shoot hard or be fancy, you just have to shoot smoothly and at a fairly soft pace. Now in the Chinese 8 ball game this may not be that big of a deal, you just need to play a nice pattern, or maybe play some sort of safe, but in 10 ball or 9 ball it's a big problem. Certain shots are not realistically makeable. The Chinese do play 9 ball on these tables, but it's a much different game. This is what happens if you over tighten the pockets.

I've heard all the brags of the "tight pocket" cowboys...To me it's all hot air. Show me some packages of 9 ball or 10 ball, not once but multiple ones, then I'll listen. It's like a shooter who can't hit the target at 200 meters trying to make the target smaller or moving it further away, it makes no freakin sense at all. Go ahead and play one pocket or banks, then, but don't try to make this small pocket bs standard for the game. Pool is supposed to be a game of creativity and big strokes, not punting safes. And if you don't listen, then get a freaking Chinese 8 ball table, and try to play some 9 ball on it. Maybe then, you'll understand how hoplelessly stupid this whole idea is.

All of you guys trying to make it look like you've "mastered" the game on normal pockets, why don't you play some Rotation? Plenty of challenges left in that game. Not going to see many packages there, even with 4.5 or larger pockets. Or transition to snooker, which is pretty much all straight shooting and safes. Go give the Rocket a beating, then come back and tell us "I told you so".
  
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12-07-2019, 09:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
Maybe then I'll fade away and not have to face the facts.
Great minds think alike sir...


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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12-07-2019, 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Great minds think alike sir...
Im pretty sure you dont understand what you are replying to.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

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12-08-2019, 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
In ever thread my pov on this has been consistent. I think tight pockets are bad for the game. I'm playing all of the tight pocket billiards games, snooker, blackball, chinese 8 ball, but these are different. US pool has a greater variety of games and a bigger repertoire of shots.

The tightest pockets (apart from Pyramid) are found in Chinese 8 ball. When a ball ends up near a rail, there is a very limited amount of things you can do to the shot. You can't shoot hard or be fancy, you just have to shoot smoothly and at a fairly soft pace. Now in the Chinese 8 ball game this may not be that big of a deal, you just need to play a nice pattern, or maybe play some sort of safe, but in 10 ball or 9 ball it's a big problem. Certain shots are not realistically makeable. The Chinese do play 9 ball on these tables, but it's a much different game. This is what happens if you over tighten the pockets.

I've heard all the brags of the "tight pocket" cowboys...To me it's all hot air. Show me some packages of 9 ball or 10 ball, not once but multiple ones, then I'll listen. It's like a shooter who can't hit the target at 200 meters trying to make the target smaller or moving it further away, it makes no freakin sense at all. Go ahead and play one pocket or banks, then, but don't try to make this small pocket bs standard for the game. Pool is supposed to be a game of creativity and big strokes, not punting safes. And if you don't listen, then get a freaking Chinese 8 ball table, and try to play some 9 ball on it. Maybe then, you'll understand how hoplelessly stupid this whole idea is.

All of you guys trying to make it look like you've "mastered" the game on normal pockets, why don't you play some Rotation? Plenty of challenges left in that game. Not going to see many packages there, even with 4.5 or larger pockets. Or transition to snooker, which is pretty much all straight shooting and safes. Go give the Rocket a beating, then come back and tell us "I told you so".
The standard pocket size for tables should be made at these specs at 3:33. https://youtu.be/RiwvH_3A7pY
  
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12-10-2019, 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightpool_99 View Post
In ever thread my pov on this has been consistent. I think tight pockets are bad for the game. I'm playing all of the tight pocket billiards games, snooker, blackball, chinese 8 ball, but these are different. US pool has a greater variety of games and a bigger repertoire of shots.

The tightest pockets (apart from Pyramid) are found in Chinese 8 ball. When a ball ends up near a rail, there is a very limited amount of things you can do to the shot. You can't shoot hard or be fancy, you just have to shoot smoothly and at a fairly soft pace. Now in the Chinese 8 ball game this may not be that big of a deal, you just need to play a nice pattern, or maybe play some sort of safe, but in 10 ball or 9 ball it's a big problem. Certain shots are not realistically makeable. The Chinese do play 9 ball on these tables, but it's a much different game. This is what happens if you over tighten the pockets.

I've heard all the brags of the "tight pocket" cowboys...To me it's all hot air. Show me some packages of 9 ball or 10 ball, not once but multiple ones, then I'll listen. It's like a shooter who can't hit the target at 200 meters trying to make the target smaller or moving it further away, it makes no freakin sense at all. Go ahead and play one pocket or banks, then, but don't try to make this small pocket bs standard for the game. Pool is supposed to be a game of creativity and big strokes, not punting safes. And if you don't listen, then get a freaking Chinese 8 ball table, and try to play some 9 ball on it. Maybe then, you'll understand how hoplelessly stupid this whole idea is.

All of you guys trying to make it look like you've "mastered" the game on normal pockets, why don't you play some Rotation? Plenty of challenges left in that game. Not going to see many packages there, even with 4.5 or larger pockets. Or transition to snooker, which is pretty much all straight shooting and safes. Go give the Rocket a beating, then come back and tell us "I told you so".
I totally agree with this post, and even though I don't have experience with Chinese 8-ball, I understand what you've said even by just watching this game online. For me, just as a spectator, it's nice to watch someone with great eyesight and straight stroke be able to cinch shots into a tight pocket and manage shape just from that on it's own, as a specific type of game, but it lacks interest for me in the long run.

The one major point that you've made is absolutely something I'd like to emphasize in par with my own experience and it's that rotational and EVEN the 8-ball bar game is hindered by tight pockets, especially to the extent of creativity.

Anyone who is any kind of real pool player should have a knowledge of cheating the pocket and most importantly spin on the object ball. Spin on the object ball I would rate up there as beyond the straightness of the shot to a tight pocket. Any player, no matter what discipline of game should realize that it takes a certain kind of stroke that is less than dead center pocket to be able to pull off a shot that is not only right for that shot alone, but to use spin on the ball to manufacture an excellent position on the white ball.

With tight pockets, you have LESS of this. The game becomes restricted and is something much less than pool, and more like target practice with a rifle and takes the game down so many notches, as the games that players for a multitude of years have already been accustomed to playing. Tight pocket advocates often forget that they are playing pool and not shooting with a gun. There are 10-folds more about this game than accuracy alone.
  
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12-10-2019, 10:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tableroll View Post
Your opponent has the same difficulty as you do. No advantage to anyone!
ABSOLUTELY WRONG.

I've heard this argument many, many times by even the more experienced players (which is sad).

First off, both players not only do not have the same shots on a (supposed) even playing field, but they also do not have the same styles of play or skill level in how they play on even a given number of shots.

Even without any discrepancy of pocket size and whatever else you can point to; if one player has an easy out, the other player can have a tougher out. There is NO equal playing field to begin with. And by tightening the pockets, the same can not only apply but much more given the kinds of shots that are available and what a said player has to do within that context.
  
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