Can a case cause a shaft to warp?

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Over the yrs i've had McDermott box-style, Fellini's, ItsGeorge, J&J and JB cases. NEVER had a shaft warp. Even Meucci's stayed true. I just don't see a case being the culprit. Weather conditions are a different deal altogether. Just get a good one, keep it inside and vertical. That's all i've ever done.
 

CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My friend left his Meucci on the front seat of his car for a second to talk to someone in the pool hall and when he came out his window was smashed and someone had left another Meucci.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:grin-devilish:

I have been using meucci cues for 30 years, new and old and
never have had a problem with one of them. I know its not
what the meucci haters want to hear but its true. At least 20
of them since 1990 to 2019
 
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CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
In hot areas, the ions will migrate more substantively toward the insulatant.
Degree of insulation should remain at least 3(1/d) at all times with d equal to shaft space opening.
Also, do NOT keep the cue in your trunk, dammit, that is your issue!

Will Prout

You forgot E= MCsquared
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I have been using meucci cues for 30 years, new and old and
never have had a problem with one of them. I know its not
what the meucci haters want to hear but its true. At least 20
of them since 1990 to 2019

Why so many?
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a 1985 Schon cue Bob Runde made at my request. The cue came with two shafts.
It has five shafts since I wanted a variety of sizes but with all the shafts, the cue is straight.

This cue has been stored in cue cases over the past 34 years but now after reading this thread
I am worried that it might be warping soon. I mean the cases have been stored upright, flat,
angular. In fact, I better go check the positions my cases are stored to avoid warping the shafts.

Gosh, maybe I’m the exception but every cue I own sits in a case and call me a blockhead
but I’m not worried. That Schon cue is dead straight but maybe it’s because the joint is a
piloted 5x16 steel vs. the big pin flat ivory on my other cues. Oh well, I’ll take my chances.
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
References? Its basic science.

Wood has a known coefficient of linear thermal expansion (CLTE) just like steel and any other material does. Anyone who passed 7th science could calculate how much a steel bar changes in length over 100 degree temperature rise and a wood cue is no different, other than a different CLTE.

Sent from the future.

Basic science huh?

Again, please show us any chart etc that shows your measurements for "linear thermal expansion".

Seems to me that you like to talk out of your ass, then act all smug when called on it.
 

gutshot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He's correct. And it is basic science. Coefficient of expansion for wood is 0.000003 "/" per degree F along the grain (length) and 0.000030 "/" per degree F perpendicular to the grain (diameter).



Basic science huh?

Again, please show us any chart etc that shows your measurements for "linear thermal expansion".

Seems to me that you like to talk out of your ass, then act all smug when called on it.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Again, please show us any chart etc that shows your measurements for "linear thermal expansion". ...
Well, they're not his measurements, but on the site "EngineeringToolbox.com" we have a table with a bunch of coefficients of thermal expansion. (I would have referred you to the CRC Handbook, but thermal expansion is one characteristic it does not list for wood.)

Here is the page you are looking for:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

The coefficients of expansion are given as parts-per-million per degree centigrade. If a material has a coefficient of expansion of "30" in the table that means if you heat it by 100 degC it will grow by a factor of 1.003, or if you took it from ice water to boiling water it would grow (in all directions) by 0.3%.

I don't know what the tubes of tube-style cases are constructed of, but fiberglass reinforced ABS has a coefficient of 31 and PVC has a coefficient between 54 and 110. Wood along the grain is listed as 3, so very low. Wood across the grain, which is the direction we're interested in is given as 30. (The type of wood is not specified except it is not fir or pine which are slightly different from just plain "wood".)

This means that if your case is made of reinforced ABS, the cue will fit very, very slightly looser if you go from Antarctica (or Toronto) to boiling hot springs. On the other hand, if you have a PVC-based tube case that is an inch in diameter (just as an example) and the cue has a tenth of an inch gap at freezing, the gap will grow to 1*(1+110*100/1000000)-0.9*(1+30*100/1000000) or 0.108 inches (starting at 0.100 inches) in boiling water. If 8 thousandths is a problem to you in this situation, you have a problem.

The take-away: Do not put your cue into your case when both are much too hot to touch.:grin:
 

Johnny Rosato

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, they're not his measurements, but on the site "EngineeringToolbox.com" we have a table with a bunch of coefficients of thermal expansion. (I would have referred you to the CRC Handbook, but thermal expansion is one characteristic it does not list for wood.)

Here is the page you are looking for:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

The coefficients of expansion are given as parts-per-million per degree centigrade. If a material has a coefficient of expansion of "30" in the table that means if you heat it by 100 degC it will grow by a factor of 1.003, or if you took it from ice water to boiling water it would grow (in all directions) by 0.3%.

I don't know what the tubes of tube-style cases are constructed of, but fiberglass reinforced ABS has a coefficient of 31 and PVC has a coefficient between 54 and 110. Wood along the grain is listed as 3, so very low. Wood across the grain, which is the direction we're interested in is given as 30. (The type of wood is not specified except it is not fir or pine which are slightly different from just plain "wood".)

This means that if your case is made of reinforced ABS, the cue will fit very, very slightly looser if you go from Antarctica (or Toronto) to boiling hot springs. On the other hand, if you have a PVC-based tube case that is an inch in diameter (just as an example) and the cue has a tenth of an inch gap at freezing, the gap will grow to 1*(1+110*100/1000000)-0.9*(1+30*100/1000000) or 0.108 inches (starting at 0.100 inches) in boiling water. If 8 thousandths is a problem to you in this situation, you have a problem.

The take-away: Do not put your cue into your case when both are much too hot to touch.:grin:
This is about how I had it figured ^^^
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is how I had it figured ^^^
And it's important for you in particular to have it figured. I've been in B'ham in May. I look forward with some fear to when I will have to be there in July of 2021. And Al Gore isn't helping any.;)
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I left my cue case in the car during the summer and here it reaches more than 130 F, here it reaches 60C degrees, which is equal to 140F degrees, and the Mezz shafts are still straight, amazing for mezz companies, but now I switched gears to Meucci, I wonder if they can withstand the same as Mezz in terms of heat exposure.

I used to deal in cues....I used comforters or wool blankets, winter or summer.
...no problems...If you leave your cues in extreme conditions, protect them.
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He's correct. And it is basic science. Coefficient of expansion for wood is 0.000003 "/" per degree F along the grain (length) and 0.000030 "/" per degree F perpendicular to the grain (diameter).

Well, they're not his measurements, but on the site "EngineeringToolbox.com" we have a table with a bunch of coefficients of thermal expansion. (I would have referred you to the CRC Handbook, but thermal expansion is one characteristic it does not list for wood.)

Here is the page you are looking for:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

The coefficients of expansion are given as parts-per-million per degree centigrade. If a material has a coefficient of expansion of "30" in the table that means if you heat it by 100 degC it will grow by a factor of 1.003, or if you took it from ice water to boiling water it would grow (in all directions) by 0.3%.

I don't know what the tubes of tube-style cases are constructed of, but fiberglass reinforced ABS has a coefficient of 31 and PVC has a coefficient between 54 and 110. Wood along the grain is listed as 3, so very low. Wood across the grain, which is the direction we're interested in is given as 30. (The type of wood is not specified except it is not fir or pine which are slightly different from just plain "wood".)

This means that if your case is made of reinforced ABS, the cue will fit very, very slightly looser if you go from Antarctica (or Toronto) to boiling hot springs. On the other hand, if you have a PVC-based tube case that is an inch in diameter (just as an example) and the cue has a tenth of an inch gap at freezing, the gap will grow to 1*(1+110*100/1000000)-0.9*(1+30*100/1000000) or 0.108 inches (starting at 0.100 inches) in boiling water. If 8 thousandths is a problem to you in this situation, you have a problem.

The take-away: Do not put your cue into your case when both are much too hot to touch.:grin:

Those are rough measurements, based on "wood".

Pool cues are not just "wood". So using the engineering website to give measurements on something that is composed of various types of wood, various types of finishes, various types of glues, A-joint construction methods, etc etc etc.....

Probably isnt the most accurate way to give measurements such as...

Originally Posted by logical View Post
A 100 degree F change in temp such as 0 to 100 F will cause a cue to get less than 0.25 mm (.008 inches) longer and the diameter changes less than one ten thousandths of an inch.

I used to be a machinist, and the use of materials expanding or contracting depending on their temperature is sound, useful for several things not the least accurate measurement. Ever handle gage blocks and expect a certain level of accuracy?

My point is giving definitive measurements about how much a pool cue expands or contracts based off of generalized data for "wood" is not accurate.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Those are rough measurements, based on "wood".



Pool cues are not just "wood". So using the engineering website to give measurements on something that is composed of various types of wood, various types of finishes, various types of glues, A-joint construction methods, etc etc etc.....



Probably isnt the most accurate way to give measurements such as...







I used to be a machinist, and the use of materials expanding or contracting depending on their temperature is sound, useful for several things not the least accurate measurement. Ever handle gage blocks and expect a certain level of accuracy?



My point is giving definitive measurements about how much a pool cue expands or contracts based off of generalized data for "wood" is not accurate.

Of course it is just an estimate but my calculation as if it was just wood is 100 times closer than the numbers you tossed out. I didn't say it was an exact calculation but the actual number is a lot closer to my "0.25mm in length and much less than that in width" approximation than your "3 mm in every direction".

Trust me, unless we are talking about a safety related calculation any engineer would use the approximation that a cue will shrink and grow pretty much the same as maple dowel rod. If it was really critical I would measure an actual cue before and after after heating it. I deal with plastic molding in both heated and cooled molds. Knowing what size to cut a cold steel tool that will be used at 300 degrees F with a specific plastic material so that the part once it cools is the size it needs to be is a calculation I do frequently in my job, so I guess I've been talking out of my ass about this topic for 34 years now.


Sent from the future.
 
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RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course it is just an estimate but my calculation as if it was just wood is 100 times closer than the numbers you tossed out. I didn't say it was an exact calculation but the actual number is a lot closer to my "0.25mm in length and much less than that in width" approximation than your "3 mm in every direction".

Trust me, unless we are talking about a safety related calculation any engineer would use the approximation that a cue will shrink and grow pretty much the same as maple dowel rod. If it was really critical I would measure an actual cue before and after after heating it. I deal with plastic molding in both heated and cooled molds. Knowing what size to cut a cold steel tool that will be used at 300 degrees F with a specific plastic material so that the part once it cools is the size it needs to be is a calculation I do frequently in my job, so I guess I've been talking out of my ass about this topic for 34 years now.


Sent from the future.

I didnt give ANY measurements, estimated or otherwise. So stating that your measurements are closer than mine is a completely false narrative. Once again, your entire first paragraph is complete horseshit.

I dont know you, so I dont know if you have been talking out of your ass for 34 years, but you sure as fook enjoy posting on this forum as if you are somehow the last word on a subject. And you have been doing that since 2013. :thumbup:
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
I didnt give ANY measurements, estimated or otherwise. So stating that your measurements are closer than mine is a completely false narrative. Once again, your entire first paragraph is complete horseshit.



I dont know you, so I dont know if you have been talking out of your ass for 34 years, but you sure as fook enjoy posting on this forum as if you are somehow the last word on a subject. And you have been doing that since 2013.
Sorry, confused you with someone else.

Glad to hear you take such great interest in me though.

Sent from the future.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
I left my cue case in the car during the summer and here it reaches more than 130 F, here it reaches 60C degrees, which is equal to 140F degrees, and the Mezz shafts are still straight, amazing for mezz companies, but now I switched gears to Meucci, I wonder if they can withstand the same as Mezz in terms of heat exposure.

Red dot, black dot or Pro? Never mind, they all warp like a MF

The good thing about Meucci shafts is at 130 F they will warp and do a complete 360, eventually ending up straight again.

Then again they might warp so bad they will dent your trunk lid.

Whatever you do, don't stand too close to them at 130F - just leave them alone and let them cool off for a couple of days. They'll be fine.

Here's a special case for storing Meucci's at 130F in your trunk.
 

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Thunder Thighs

I'm your Huckleberry
Silver Member
My friend left his Meucci on the front seat of his car for a second to talk to someone in the pool hall and when he came out his window was smashed and someone had left another Meucci.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.:grin-devilish:

:rotflmao1:
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Man it is scary to think that a case can do that, I just threw a case out the window cause it was tight inside and I thought it was the reason for whatever was happening to my shafts, ill keep the other case however cause it felt like there's room inside for the shaft to move which I think is safer.
 
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