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02-28-2018, 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhatten View Post
I've often wondered how to convey what "put a 1/2 tip or 1 tip of english" really means to other people when trying to convey to 'students of pool' how (and for that matter where on the CB) to place english ... ie off center CB. This makes my point pretty clear with these two related conversations

In SFC9Ball (Jim Baker-PBIA Advanced Instructor) Post #9 in this threat states:
.."Spin comes from striking the cue ball on the horizontal axis up to 3 tips ( 1 tip = 3.78mm or the circumference of the circle in the red circle cue ball) and how firm you strike the cue ball. There are many myths in pool out there that are just not true."

Stating 1 tip (of English) = 3.78 mm off of CCB... Fast forward to BOB Meucci's definition of appling english in his video on testing his "mechanical swing arm" testing at CCB... seen in this video at 5:54m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke_D...ature=youtu.be

Note here Bob M states that he's (the mechanical stroke arm) appling right english at 3/16" off CCB (or "slightly less than 1/2 tip english")... A quick google search finds 3/16" is 4.7625 mm. That would make a full 1 tip of english = to 9.52 mm.

So if I'm shooting with say a 12mm shaft (say my MezzWX900), how do I know when I'm putting a 1/2 tip of english on the CB ... which is 6mm off center? According to Jim post above that's almost 2 full tips... (2 X's 3.78= 7.56mm)

What about a 14mm or a 10.5 mm shaft?

Seems to me that there is no standard way to convey to put 'a half tip or a whole tip' outside english and have it mean the same thing for any 2 different people/instructors etc.. [This is without regard to tip speed (10mph or 2mph) or Shaft type or even tip shape or even chalk characteristics or CB Surface dirtiness.]

Just saying.. The Language of Pool in one's mind (the 'feel of it') is hard enough to quantify but the mathematical language should not have this must diversity OR we'll just keep talking past one another...

R

What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!
Even thought we all play the cue sport games does not mean we speak the same language, I thought 1 tip of English was the size of my tip on my shaft until I got educated by Scott Lee that the PBIA recognizes what I had described above, so now when the PBIA Instructors and their students now have an understanding what a tip of English means to them. Same goes for speed on the pool table, if I told you to hit a 3 speed on the pool table you would not know how hard to hit it or an idea of how hard to hit it unless you have had instructions on how to do so.

A tip of English means many different measurements depending on who you ask, the same with how hard to hit a shot. If I told a student to hit a ball at a medium speed their medium and my medium might be vastly different, but if I tell them to hit it with a 3 speed and they understand the speed zones, now I have a standard and something to measure the hit with.

If we can standardize some measurements in pool like tip of English, speed in which to hit the cue ball ETC. the better it is for people to understand.


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02-28-2018, 12:39 PM

Years ago, I tried a couple of different Meucci Cues, made in the early 80s, because of the spin story.
It seemed to me that I did get more spin than my regular cue. The reason for this, I did not know. I did know that apparently, the cues had to be made from about 1985 or earlier and have the original Meucci shaft from 1985 or earlier.
  
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02-28-2018, 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhatten View Post
What is 1/2 tip anyway? Really...

Standardize it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
...whatever amount of offset takes me a full diamond over when against the short rail.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhatten;6100024I
... always thought 1 tip of spin ='s like 1 Diamond across the table (Long rail to Long rail) at like a medium speed...
I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
It is standardized....it’s the size of the circle ⭕️ that’s the actual tip “contact patch” size
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The size of that patch depends on how hard the tip is and how hard you shoot. I think that definition is more or less pointless and useless.
Agree with Bob on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC9ball View Post
If we can standardize some measurements in pool like tip of English, speed in which to hit the cue ball ETC. the better it is for people to understand.
The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

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02-28-2018, 01:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.




Agree with Bob on this.


The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

pj
chgo


Now that I can get with describing it like that in regard to fraction of max spin.

Welcome back player


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02-28-2018, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by greyghost View Post
Now that I can get with describing it like that in regard to fraction of max spin.

Welcome back player
Thanks, Keeb.

Here's how the fractions of max translate to mm and inches.

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chgo

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02-28-2018, 03:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I like calibrating sidespin this way (by how many diamonds of crosstable angle I get) - but I don't use "tips" to describe it.




Agree with Bob on this.


The obvious way has been suggested here more than once: use fractions of maximum spin (1/4 max, 1/2 max, etc.) - that translates to the same thing for everybody, assuming everybody knows that max spin = ~1/2 the distance from center to edge (so 1/4 max = 1/8 the distance from center to edge, 1/2 max = 1/4 the distance, etc.).

On the broken-in GCs I usually play on, 1/3 max spin creates a 1-diamond crosstable angle, 2/3 = 2 diamonds and max = 3 diamonds (very convenient). You can call that 1 tip, 2 tips and 3 tips if you like, but I won't know what you're saying until you define "tip". Also, it changes from table to table, but gives you a baseline to work from.

pj
chgo


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02-28-2018, 03:34 PM

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lol - nice to see you too, Mr. President.

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02-28-2018, 03:37 PM

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I second that!

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02-28-2018, 03:40 PM

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I second that!

Welcome back, pj.
Thanks, AL. Wonder how long I'll last this time.

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02-28-2018, 05:25 PM

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Thanks, AL. Wonder how long I'll last this time.

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02-28-2018, 09:16 PM

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Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
Iíve played with a Meucci 97-8 for just shy of 20 years. Iíve been regaled with stories of how much spin a Meucci puts on the ball ever since I first got it. Everyone told me it was because of the flex in the shaft. Early last year it dawned on me the significance of shaft size. My shaft was 13mm and had a chance to try a stick with <13mm. I had no idea what that was. I thought I was handed a snooker cue (naive). I then bought a 1986 McDermott D6 with 12.75mm shaft and have used that the past year. Now as I know the feel of that and have learned more about LD shafts. I wonder this. Do most players think all Meuccis are super flexible when in truth their perceptions were formed from anecdotes of when Meucci started releasing LD shafts? Because I now have a hard time thinking of ANY 13mm shaft as flexible. Itís like stroking with a tree trunk when I pick it up now.


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No. Moochie shafts were whippy for decades prior to LD shafts.

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02-28-2018, 09:19 PM

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Originally Posted by pdcue View Post
No. Moochie shafts were whippy for decades prior to LD shafts.



Dale(who was there)


That helps. It matches what someone else said. Is your experience that it was the case with pre-80s shafts? Is it fair to say a base model Meucci shaft from 90s onward arenít reflective of what originated the reputation?


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02-28-2018, 10:50 PM

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Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
That helps. It matches what someone else said. Is your experience that it was the case with pre-80s shafts? Is it fair to say a base model Meucci shaft from 90s onward arenít reflective of what originated the reputation?


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The only reason they ďcreate more spinĒ is off the object ball.....because they throw the cb so much.....if I do the straight in trick shot center diamond end rail with ob and cb straight ahead in the center of the box and shoot the cut off the rail with spin....

My 90s gambler and original sneaky both played that shot with a 3/4 ball over lap and a few tips side.

My hueblers shoot that shot at like 5/16 cuz itís not quite half or a third....schons are about there or were or just a tad stiffer.

Cues I shoot with today I just aim at the ob right edge no overlap one tip left english ⭕️

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Believe it or not I broke the ferrule and the tennon was screwed.

I put it on my wood lathe and carefully took it down and used a 1Ē piece of live oak.....lol I was 16 I didnít have no dam ageis or know how to find material like that.

And instantly the cue played less like chit

I could aim it straighter to where the ball was actually going I do remember taking the part that snapped and cutting it in half and the tennon was my first sight at the often found meucci glue voids in that 10 foot ferrule they got 🤣

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02-28-2018, 11:48 PM

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Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
That helps. It matches what someone else said. Is your experience that it was the case with pre-80s shafts? Is it fair to say a base model Meucci shaft from 90s onward arenít reflective of what originated the reputation?


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My comments were in reference to pre 80s.

Wasn't the 90s the era of the notorious 'flex shafts'?

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03-01-2018, 12:50 AM

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Originally Posted by MattPoland View Post
Iíve played with a Meucci 97-8 for just shy of 20 years.
My first cue was a Meucci, but I havenít played with one in more than 20 years. I didnít know about stiffness then, so never noticed, even when I switched to a Schon.

Quote:
Iíve been regaled with stories of how much spin a Meucci puts on the ball ever since I first got it. Everyone told me it was because of the flex in the shaft.
My cue for the past 15+ years is a 10mm hollowpoint custom - stiff as hell with a conical taper and ultra low squirt. Puts the same amount of spin on the ball. I donít think any cue, whippy or not, makes more spin than any other. Tests bear that out. Itís all about where you hit the CB.

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