Best way to roll forward just a bit on longer shots?

Cornerman · Jun 12, 2019

longhorns2 said:
Say you have straight in shot downtable and you just want to roll forward a couple inches. You can either strike the ball slightly above center, but you have to hit the cb kinda hard so that it doesn't get too much forward roll, you can hit it center ball and have just a bit of forward roll develop, or you can hit a draw shot with less force so it turns into forward roll.

Which do you think is the most reliable? Lately I've been doing the draw type shot but seems like it gives more of a chance for masse effect if hit off center and more of a chance for a table roll

Edit: and I guess you can also just roll it slow but on the tables I play on that's not a great option

I have an analytical drill of sorts that I teach for stun follow. But the basic is to understand what the stop/stun shot is at that distance, and shoot that but 1/2 tip (or whatever) higher.

Is either slower or faster more reliable? I'll go with: whatever your natural speed is, that's the most repeatable. If you don't know what your natural stroke speed is, you might want to see a PBIA instructor or any instructor that teaches natural stroke speed baseline.

Freddie <~~~ doesn't do the drills

Cornerman · Jun 12, 2019

bbb said:
find your stop shot position for your tip on the cue ball based on the speed you plan to hit it
go 1/4-1/2 tip higher for just "alittle roll forward"

Or I could have just said ^^^^ This

hang-the-9 · Jun 12, 2019

longhorns2 said:
Say you have straight in shot downtable and you just want to roll forward a couple inches. You can either strike the ball slightly above center, but you have to hit the cb kinda hard so that it doesn't get too much forward roll, you can hit it center ball and have just a bit of forward roll develop, or you can hit a draw shot with less force so it turns into forward roll.

Which do you think is the most reliable? Lately I've been doing the draw type shot but seems like it gives more of a chance for masse effect if hit off center and more of a chance for a table roll

Edit: and I guess you can also just roll it slow but on the tables I play on that's not a great option

Really only way is hit bellow center and adjust speed for distance, cloth and balls you are using unless you are at a close distance, then you use use a roll or a stun hit where the cueball had a bit of forward rotation when it reaches the object ball.

As in every other question on shots, it depends, and practice LOL

Pete · Jun 12, 2019

Drag method ever since I saw Efren do it in 2002ish. I like Stun Run Through When the balls are within 2 diamonds of each other but will do both methods there to (it's a feel thing)...

Patrick Johnson · Jun 12, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
To explain the difference for myself and others who may be confused, the stun run is hit at a harder pace and more center ball contact with the cue tip than the drag draw which may be hit at a little easier pace but with cue tip contact lower on the cue ball?

They're both the same kind of shot: a sliding or backspinning CB that stops sliding/backspinning before it reaches the OB. How high/low and hard/soft you hit the CB determines exactly how it acts and what it's called - here's a drawing showing the various terminologies.

pj
chgo

P.S. The same techniques are used to control the CB carom angle from a cut shot - more/less rollthrough = more/less "follow angle"
compared to the stun/tangent line.

Bob Jewett · Jun 12, 2019

You do have to be prepared for all different speeds to send the cue ball slightly ahead in case you have an angle and the distance to the side is also important. For most reliable distance control, there are two choices.

If the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the object ball, it will roll forward about 1/6th of the distance you drive the object ball (on an infinitely long table). That means if the OB is three diamonds from the pocket, a rolling cue ball has to go forward at least half a diamond for an OB that barely drops. This kind of shot is independent of cloth conditions as long as you get the speed of the OB right. This can be played as a drag shot that ends with smooth roll, but I think it is easier to get the speed right if you play with some follow -- table levelness permitting.

The second choice eliminates the condition of the cloth as much as possible. Hit the cue ball near the center and firmly. The firm part reduces the time the cloth acts on the ball to give it forward roll. This shot is useful when you want the cue ball to go forward less than a sixth of the distance from the OB to the pocket. Bert Kinister emphasizes a drill that takes the cue ball forward exactly one ball to replace the OB. That's part of a whole family of shots that take the cue ball forward or backward a short, well-controlled distance. I like the comfort-zone speed mentioned above, but you need to push out from there into less comfortable territory for some shots with a small angle.

JazzyJeff87 · Jun 12, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
To explain the difference for myself and others who may be confused, the stun run is hit at a harder pace and more center ball contact with the cue tip than the drag draw which may be hit at a little easier pace but with cue tip contact lower on the cue ball?

So I know you play well and probably got Patrick’s chart but in case someone reading didn’t..

For the Stun run through you’re basically hitting firm, just a little high of center ball so that the cue ball is sliding forward with a little bit of forward roll as well. At least that’s how I think of it and play it. I guess you could also hit just center and judge when your slide will wear off to slight forward roll.

And the draw drag is a really useful and crafty shot. When you have maybe a slow roll situation but you’re worried about roll off you can hit the cue ball much harder with heavy draw and that will seem at first to be way hard but the draw will slow your cue ball down dramatically as it heads to the object ball, and with practice you can get the draw to wear off and turn to forward roll right before contact. In some situations it almost looks magical and uninformed people think you miscues and got lucky.

These are both very subjective to distance between Q and OB and OB and pocket when it comes to which to use, how hard and all that. Stun run through is my favorite shot though.

Viader · Jun 12, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
You do have to be prepared for all different speeds to send the cue ball slightly ahead in case you have an angle and the distance to the side is also important. For most reliable distance control, there are two choices.

If the cue ball is rolling smoothly on the cloth when it gets to the object ball, it will roll forward about 1/6th of the distance you drive the object ball (on an infinitely long table). That means if the OB is three diamonds from the pocket, a rolling cue ball has to go forward at least half a diamond for an OB that barely drops. This kind of shot is independent of cloth conditions as long as you get the speed of the OB right. This can be played as a drag shot that ends with smooth roll, but I think it is easier to get the speed right if you play with some follow -- table levelness permitting.

The second choice eliminates the condition of the cloth as much as possible. Hit the cue ball near the center and firmly. The firm part reduces the time the cloth acts on the ball to give it forward roll. This shot is useful when you want the cue ball to go forward less than a sixth of the distance from the OB to the pocket. Bert Kinister emphasizes a drill that takes the cue ball forward exactly one ball to replace the OB. That's part of a whole family of shots that take the cue ball forward or backward a short, well-controlled distance. I like the comfort-zone speed mentioned above, but you need to push out from there into less comfortable territory for some shots with a small angle.

Here is a video of the Bert Kinister drill that Bob referred to in his post. It's a great drill for developing this skill:
https://youtu.be/Gcg0pDeVc7I?t=307

megatron69 · Jun 12, 2019

So it's called drag draw now. When I learned that shot probably over twenty years ago i was told it was a 'punch draw' shot.

It's an extremely useful shot. Does take some practice and of course an understanding of where and when to use it. Or rather when and where not to use it.

Patrick Johnson · Jun 12, 2019

megatron69 said:
So it's called drag draw now.

This is one of those things in pool that has different names depending on who's talking. I think the labels in my drawing are fairly common and pretty descriptive - but they're not universal.

pj
chgo

megatron69 · Jun 12, 2019

Patrick Johnson said:
This is one of those things in pool that has different names depending on who's talking. I think the labels in my drawing are fairly common and pretty descriptive - but they're not universal.

pj
chgo

Oh, I know. Similar to how for most of my life I called making a "shape," a "leave." There's no real 'standardization' of terms in pool (not yet anyway), so we have to occasionally interpret various terms for the same things as they evolve.

Bob Jewett · Jun 12, 2019

megatron69 said:
So it's called drag draw now. When I learned that shot probably over twenty years ago i was told it was a 'punch draw' shot.
...

I would have thought that a "punch draw" shot was one where the cue ball came back a short distance with a firm shot. That -- with just a little backspin when the cue ball arrives -- is also called "dead draw".

megatron69 · Jun 12, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
I would have thought that a "punch draw" shot was one where the cue ball came back a short distance with a firm shot. That -- with just a little backspin when the cue ball arrives -- is also called "dead draw".

That makes sense. I'm just relating what it was called by the guy that taught me the shot; either way it's a great shot by any name.

JazzyJeff87 · Jun 12, 2019

megatron69 said:
Oh, I know. Similar to how for most of my life I called making a "shape," a "leave." There's no real 'standardization' of terms in pool (not yet anyway), so we have to occasionally interpret various terms for the same things as they evolve.

A guy I play with sometimes had called it a “lead” for a long time. As in “leading to the next shot” lol. We give him a little stuff for it on occasion now that he knows the word he always heard people saying was “leave”

Good lead good lead

pt109 · Jun 12, 2019

Snooker players call it stun-follow.
The foundation is a stop shot...then you tweak it a bit....
...how you do that varies with conditions

Forgive me for the pic...intended for another thread.

crunchy1X · Jun 13, 2019

For me, I think it would depend on where I would want to be if I missed shape a bit. If rolling forward too far was the better miss, I'd probably draw drag or slow roll. If stopping dead or drawing back a bit was the better miss, then punching hard with a slightly above center tip is probably the way I'd go.

vinay · Jun 19, 2019

crunchy1X said:
For me, I think it would depend on where I would want to be if I missed shape a bit. If rolling forward too far was the better miss, I'd probably draw drag or slow roll. If stopping dead or drawing back a bit was the better miss, then punching hard with a slightly above center tip is probably the way I'd go.

This is a good insight. Take the layout from the video michael4 shared, for example:

The drag shot is risky because stopping or drawing the cue ball is disastrous but going forward a little too far still leaves you look at the 8. Probably better to use a punch-follow to go a forward to err on the side of going too far. On the other hand if the 4 ball was flipped over to the other side of the 8, the drag shot might be the safer option.

Ratta · Jun 19, 2019

Stun-Follow - or some call it stun follow through.

A shot you should have in your arsenal- especially on very long shots a life-saver. also because there s then no need to be scary that the table rolls off. Slow rolling something that always is extremly dangerous.

Black-Balled · Jun 19, 2019

Agreed...draw/drag is a poor choice when your balls are close.

In the situation pictured, I prefer to use max topspin strike point with a small strike force.

I find it easier to control distance with manipulation of speed, rather than a strike point.

I'd think 2'+ is generally the range in which idraw/drag's appropriate.

vinay said:
This is a good insight. Take the layout from the video michael4 shared, for example:

The drag shot is risky because stopping or drawing the cue ball is disastrous but going forward a little too far still leaves you look at the 8. Probably better to use a punch-follow to go a forward to err on the side of going too far. On the other hand if the 4 ball was flipped over to the other side of the 8, the drag shot might be the safer option.

Patrick Johnson · Jun 19, 2019

Black-Balled said:
In the situation pictured, I prefer to use max topspin strike point with a small strike force.

This is one of those times when a rule of thumb comes in handy. The one I'm thinking of is the "1/6 follow" rule that Bob Jewett mentions occasionally: a rolling CB will follow a straight-hit OB about 1/6 of the distance the OB would travel without hitting a rail.

So in this case, if you hit the 13 ball at just pocket speed it will travel 5 diamonds and the rolling CB will travel 5/6 of a diamond. If you hit the 13 a little harder to be sure it gets to the pocket, the CB will travel a little farther.

pj
chgo

Best way to roll forward just a bit on longer shots?

Cue Author...Sometimes

Cue Author...Sometimes

AzB Silver Member

AzB Silver Member

Fish of the Day

AZB Osmium Member

AzB Plutonium Member

Registered

AzB Silver Member

Fish of the Day

AzB Silver Member

AZB Osmium Member

AzB Silver Member

AzB Plutonium Member

WO double hemlock

Attachments

Registered

Registered

Hearing the balls.....

AzB Silver Member

Fish of the Day