Best remedy for staying down?

A studded board may or may not work. Get about 3 feet of fishline...put treble hooks on each end. Put fishline around your neck, and attach hooks to your nutsack! You will only raise up ONCE. LOL :grin-square:

All kidding aside, put more pressure on your bridge hand, and force your hand to stay on the cloth until after the OB goes in.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

poolnut7879 said:

My biggest fault in fundamentals is staying down especially in tough situations. Besides having someone put a studded board above my head does anyone have any suggestions?

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Believe it or not, the fix for a jumping up problem can be different for different people. It all depends on what's causing you to jump up. I would want to see you shoot before making a call on the right fix for your jumping up problem.

If you can post a link to yourself shooting, that would help a lot. Also, make sure your stance is visible. That's very important. A poor stance can cause instability at the table. You'll probably get advice here sight unseen and it may help temporarily, but without seeing you shoot, it's more or less a crap shoot.

Scott and Fran have given some useful information.

Another situation could be your "eye pattern". Check that out.

randyg

A stick above your head held by a "friend" (who enjoys watching you hit your head) will help, but in general...

...Movement up/jumping up is bad. Movement down and ahead (with the cue movement) is not so bad.

Others will feel free to disagree with me here, but you can move on a shot if you move with the shot.

Is front and back foot weight distribution a factor ?

Hey everyone,

Fran (wink ) , Scott and Randy gave already good advices-

Without seeing you it s not really serious to tell you something because everything would just be "what could be the reason" in your case- just guess work.

What s very important is very first the stance itself- "finding your center" to get into a really stable stance which allows you to "release your stroke" without any interference.
Next most important in my opinion - better said from my expirience has to do with the topic "eye pattern", what Randy has shown up. This begins with something where a great amount of players have a problem with "trust your stroke"-- the eye pattern and "believing" are going "hand in hand"-
ONce you have a stable stance- having a workin eye pattern- these two things will give you more *believing* in yourself and will (imho) help you a lot releasing the shot nicley....and staying down RELAXED.

I can just recommend to get in contact with a well knowledged person on this topic- believe me, this will help you really much faster instead of just workin out this on your own- Just one day of practice with a knowledged guy, who is able to *detect* YOUR real problem can do wonders.

have a smooth stroke,

best wishes from overseas

Ingo

Something I notice when some players focus on 'staying down', they actually make it worse because they just try to get their head and shoulders lower to the table, but they do this by slumping forward, not by bending at the hip. This makes the spine curve forward, and that's bad for staying still when you exert yourself.

This is why weight lifters focus on keeping good form, for controlled strength. If your spine is curved forward and you try to fire a hard shot, your back will back tend to snap straight when you exert yourself, making your head and shoulders lift up.

Things to try to make sure your back is in a strong and still position:

- Do not hang your head, this curves your upper spine.

- See if you can stand back from the table a little more so you are stretching just a little bit, bending at the hip, not your back. If you're shooting on the rail, grip the cue forward to shorten up your bridge, rather than standing closer or taller.

- Breastbone out, shoulders wide. No matter how far you turn towards/away from the table in your stance, rotate your shoulders around your spine, don't cock your shoulders when you reach forward to bridge or back to extend the cue, when you pull your shoulders out of plane you weaken your posture and will risk raising up.

- Pull in some deep breaths as you get down on the shot to expand your rib cage and lengthen your spine.

Other factors are more particular to your preferred form, some are mental. Instead of focusing on where your tip hits the ball, try thinking about where you want your tip to finish at the end of the stroke, that can help you stay down. How long do you bridge and how long is your backswing? Some players take a big fluid backswing, but my experience is this works better with a heavier rather than lighter cue, as when you shoot hard a heavier cue will want to continue traveling forward even if you move a little, whereas a lighter cue will want to lift up when you do. If you prefer a lighter cue (as I do) maybe try a shorter backswing and try to make up the speed from better form in your elbow, wrist.

Thorsten Hohmann, Niels Feijen, and Alex Pagulayan are good examples of three very different stances but in each case you see a level back and you can draw a perfectly straight line from their back elbow to the tip of the cue, and their head and both shoulders are in the same plane. Alex has a ltitle trouble getting down quite as low because of his height, but you still see his back straight and shoulders in plane. These guys never raise up because of solid posture and fundamentals, so while there might be players out there that can beat them on a good day if these guys lose focus, at least they never suffer a breakdown of their shooting fundamentals even on their worst day.







Then you have Stephen Hendry with one of the most rock steady postures imaginable, and he dominated one of the hardest games in the world for over a decade:


Then you have Earl who as he's aged has started slumping a lot, so he's now strapping weights to himself to stop him moving. If you haven't spent the majority of your life on a pool table and/or can't practice 8 hours a day, don't slump like this:



When Earl's not feeling it, he pops up on shots and gets frustrated. See the difference in how all the others hold their upper body, even though they all have different ways of placing their feet and turning to the table?

ronscuba said:

Is front and back foot weight distribution a factor ?

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Yes, along with alignment, it can be a factor. However, once a habit has been ingrained, then the habit must be broken, even if the weight distribution and alignment issues have been resolved.

Gorramjayne said:

Something I notice when some players focus on 'staying down', they actually make it worse because they just try to get their head and shoulders lower to the table, but they do this by slumping forward, not by bending at the hip. This makes the spine curve forward, and that's bad for staying still when you exert yourself.

This is why weight lifters focus on keeping good form, for controlled strength. If your spine is curved forward and you try to fire a hard shot, your back will back tend to snap straight when you exert yourself, making your head and shoulders lift up.

Things to try to make sure your back is in a strong and still position:

- Do not hang your head, this curves your upper spine.

- See if you can stand back from the table a little more so you are stretching just a little bit, bending at the hip, not your back. If you're shooting on the rail, grip the cue forward to shorten up your bridge, rather than standing closer or taller.

- Breastbone out, shoulders wide. No matter how far you turn towards/away from the table in your stance, rotate your shoulders around your spine, don't cock your shoulders when you reach forward to bridge or back to extend the cue, when you pull your shoulders out of plane you weaken your posture and will risk raising up.

- Pull in some deep breaths as you get down on the shot to expand your rib cage and lengthen your spine.

Other factors are more particular to your preferred form, some are mental. Instead of focusing on where your tip hits the ball, try thinking about where you want your tip to finish at the end of the stroke, that can help you stay down. How long do you bridge and how long is your backswing? Some players take a big fluid backswing, but my experience is this works better with a heavier rather than lighter cue, as when you shoot hard a heavier cue will want to continue traveling forward even if you move a little, whereas a lighter cue will want to lift up when you do. If you prefer a lighter cue (as I do) maybe try a shorter backswing and try to make up the speed from better form in your elbow, wrist.

Thorsten Hohmann, Niels Feijen, and Alex Pagulayan are good examples of three very different stances but in each case you see a level back and you can draw a perfectly straight line from their back elbow to the tip of the cue, and their head and both shoulders are in the same plane. Alex has a ltitle trouble getting down quite as low because of his height, but you still see his back straight and shoulders in plane. These guys never raise up because of solid posture and fundamentals, so while there might be players out there that can beat them on a good day if these guys lose focus, at least they never suffer a breakdown of their shooting fundamentals even on their worst day.

Then you have Stephen Hendry with one of the most rock steady postures imaginable, and he dominated one of the hardest games in the world for over a decade:

Then you have Earl who as he's aged has started slumping a lot, so he's now strapping weights to himself to stop him moving. If you haven't spent the majority of your life on a pool table and/or can't practice 8 hours a day, don't slump like this:

When Earl's not feeling it, he pops up on shots and gets frustrated. See the difference in how all the others hold their upper body, even though they all have different ways of placing their feet and turning to the table?

Click to expand...

Earl is very physically fit. I don't think his issues are as much age as they are habit. I've had this discussion with him before. I told him I don't think he needs those weights. He seems to think he does but I think he's wrong.

FranCrimi said:

Earl is very physically fit. I don't think his issues are as much age as they are habit. I've had this discussion with him before. I told him I don't think he needs those weights. He seems to think he does but I think he's wrong.

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I know he runs a lot, does he do anything for strength training? It's got to be hard being such a perfectionist and also having ruled competition for decades on natural and self-taught talent you've had since you were a kid, I'm sure he's reluctant to change the habits that used to work. Not that they don't still work,I play at Steinway every once in a while and have seen him shooting, it's still incredible shooting... but you're right, weights aren't the answer. I don't mean it disparagingly when I say that things have changed now that he's gotten older, even if we take care of ourselves carefully, our bodies change. I'm not even 40 and I definitely feel the effects of aches, pains, and stiffness affecting parts of my shot I never had to monitor at all.

Gorramjayne said:

I know he runs a lot, does he do anything for strength training? It's got to be hard being such a perfectionist and also having ruled competition for decades on natural and self-taught talent you've had since you were a kid, I'm sure he's reluctant to change the habits that used to work. Not that they don't still work,I play at Steinway every once in a while and have seen him shooting, it's still incredible shooting... but you're right, weights aren't the answer. I don't mean it disparagingly when I say that things have changed now that he's gotten older, even if we take care of ourselves carefully, our bodies change. I'm not even 40 and I definitely feel the effects of aches, pains, and stiffness affecting parts of my shot I never had to monitor at all.

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Good points. I'm not sure if he weight-trains, but his posture at the table hasn't really changed much, if at all. Snapshots are a brief second in time, so you can't really judge by a snapshot. Also, you can't run 10 miles regularly with joint issues and then step into a pool room and practice for 4 hours, so I think Earl's okay on that end. One thing for sure about getting older, and that's that we have accumulated a whole lot of information in our brains over the years. If only we could just wrap up 3/4 of it and toss it in the waste basket....

Staying Down

I have a different slant on fundamental flaws that I learned from Nic Barrow that might help you. Every fundamental flaw symptom is your body and mind trying to help you and telling you something.

Jumping up or looking at that shot might mean that you were never 100 per cent sure that your imagined stroke and line of aim will pocket the ball. Thus you jump up to see if it went in.

Visualize the shot going in, feel it in your body and see it in your mind, place a bit more weight on your bridge hand, develop a consistent optimal eye pattern and be still when you stroke.

Remember you can only improve if you freeze after the stroke and evaluate the results. Was it a cueing error, an aiming error, or table conditions? If you jump up you lose an opportunity to improve.

Hope that helps.

Most have a pre-shot routine. Well I like to think there is a post shot routine as well. The easiest for me was to stay in my after stroke position until the object ball entered the pocket. If I miss the intended shot, as a sort of "punishment" for myself was I had to stay down until the object ball stopped motion. Doing this as if it was a part of my pre-shot routine made staying down on the shot part of the stroke itself. I kind of trained myself to pocket more balls because I didn't want to sit there after missing thinking about what was off.

Pretty soon I knew it wasn't because I jumped up... the first week my back was killing me but the repetition of it was key. Now I subconsciously do it, one less thing to worry about yeah?

Good luck.

Gorramjayne said:

Something I notice when some players focus on 'staying down', they actually make it worse because they just try to get their head and shoulders lower to the table, but they do this by slumping forward, not by bending at the hip. This makes the spine curve forward, and that's bad for staying still when you exert yourself.

This is why weight lifters focus on keeping good form, for controlled strength. If your spine is curved forward and you try to fire a hard shot, your back will back tend to snap straight when you exert yourself, making your head and shoulders lift up.

Things to try to make sure your back is in a strong and still position:

- Do not hang your head, this curves your upper spine.

- See if you can stand back from the table a little more so you are stretching just a little bit, bending at the hip, not your back. If you're shooting on the rail, grip the cue forward to shorten up your bridge, rather than standing closer or taller.

- Breastbone out, shoulders wide. No matter how far you turn towards/away from the table in your stance, rotate your shoulders around your spine, don't cock your shoulders when you reach forward to bridge or back to extend the cue, when you pull your shoulders out of plane you weaken your posture and will risk raising up.

- Pull in some deep breaths as you get down on the shot to expand your rib cage and lengthen your spine.

Other factors are more particular to your preferred form, some are mental. Instead of focusing on where your tip hits the ball, try thinking about where you want your tip to finish at the end of the stroke, that can help you stay down. How long do you bridge and how long is your backswing? Some players take a big fluid backswing, but my experience is this works better with a heavier rather than lighter cue, as when you shoot hard a heavier cue will want to continue traveling forward even if you move a little, whereas a lighter cue will want to lift up when you do. If you prefer a lighter cue (as I do) maybe try a shorter backswing and try to make up the speed from better form in your elbow, wrist.

Thorsten Hohmann, Niels Feijen, and Alex Pagulayan are good examples of three very different stances but in each case you see a level back and you can draw a perfectly straight line from their back elbow to the tip of the cue, and their head and both shoulders are in the same plane. Alex has a ltitle trouble getting down quite as low because of his height, but you still see his back straight and shoulders in plane. These guys never raise up because of solid posture and fundamentals, so while there might be players out there that can beat them on a good day if these guys lose focus, at least they never suffer a breakdown of their shooting fundamentals even on their worst day.

Then you have Stephen Hendry with one of the most rock steady postures imaginable, and he dominated one of the hardest games in the world for over a decade:

Then you have Earl who as he's aged has started slumping a lot, so he's now strapping weights to himself to stop him moving. If you haven't spent the majority of your life on a pool table and/or can't practice 8 hours a day, don't slump like this:

When Earl's not feeling it, he pops up on shots and gets frustrated. See the difference in how all the others hold their upper body, even though they all have different ways of placing their feet and turning to the table?

Click to expand...

Post of the year!!!

This is the first time that I've read this explained so thoroughly. It reminds me about books that I read in 80s or 90s about tennis. Maybe even the inner game of tennis touched on it. But I have never read anything as elaborate. Posture, breathing and confidence to improve performance. Also Brett touched on it when he mentions walking around the table with confidence, like it is your territory.

This all makes sense and I can think of 3 players that can't seem to shake this problem entirely, and these traits appear in each of them. In the past, I have encouraged them to shoot more upright, ...to not fight the tendency. Because they seem to do it when looking for more power. So when upright, they can engage their triceps rather than their biceps for accurate power. But they don't like aiming from that position, even though they pocket balls better. So I've explained that they need a more "athletic" stance...for lack of a better term. And your explanation fits perfectly what I had in mind, but couldn't explain appropriately.

Edit... This was on my feed, I didn't know it was on the section. So I should add that I'm not an instructor, I just have players ask for advice and do the best that I can to help them.

Something else that has helped students recently--have at least two "stops" in your shot routine. Pause/stop following the final practice stroke, near the cue ball. Stop after the final stroke as well. Stroke and come to a stop. This is less tension-inducing than "staying down" advice.

Gorramjayne said:

I know he runs a lot, does he do anything for strength training? It's got to be hard being such a perfectionist and also having ruled competition for decades on natural and self-taught talent you've had since you were a kid, I'm sure he's reluctant to change the habits that used to work. Not that they don't still work,I play at Steinway every once in a while and have seen him shooting, it's still incredible shooting... but you're right, weights aren't the answer. I don't mean it disparagingly when I say that things have changed now that he's gotten older, even if we take care of ourselves carefully, our bodies change. I'm not even 40 and I definitely feel the effects of aches, pains, and stiffness affecting parts of my shot I never had to monitor at all.

Click to expand...

Earl does mention in a TAR podcast with SVB that he does not do anything for strength training. He runs 5 miles a day and 500 sit ups everyday.

mfinkelstein3 said:

I have a different slant on fundamental flaws that I learned from Nic Barrow that might help you. Every fundamental flaw symptom is your body and mind trying to help you and telling you something.

Jumping up or looking at that shot might mean that you were never 100 per cent sure that your imagined stroke and line of aim will pocket the ball. Thus you jump up to see if it went in.

Visualize the shot going in, feel it in your body and see it in your mind, place a bit more weight on your bridge hand, develop a consistent optimal eye pattern and be still when you stroke.

Remember you can only improve if you freeze after the stroke and evaluate the results. Was it a cueing error, an aiming error, or table conditions? If you jump up you lose an opportunity to improve.

Hope that helps.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with the above post. And have been saying it here for a decade. I firmly believe most jumping up is nothing more than anticipation of seeing if the shot will go in or not. Which is why the OP had more trouble with it on tougher shots.