League pool story

Reminds me of a couple of stories with a very nice lady. I would say older lady except I'm 63 and she's definitely younger than me buy I still felt like I was playing my Grandmother. It's in the NAPL.
The first one was after she fouled two consecutive times. Me, the jerk just couldn't call "you're on two" to a grandmother type. Well, her next shot she scratches the cue ball. I did tell her that I should have called it but was too nice to. She said she'll take the loss of that game but I said "the rules say I have to say you're on two" and I didn't call it. She ended up winning the game then the match.
The second time when she was going for the nine ball in nine ball she asked me, her opponent, if she should go for the side pocket or the corner. I said you have to go for the side because the corner is a sure scratch. She took my advice and won the game.

And that gentlemen is one of the reasons I do not play league anymore. Hats off to yall who do, but I have lost patience with those types of players one too many times for me to keep on trying lol

Carolina_Giant said:

And that gentlemen is one of the reasons I do not play league anymore.

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Tournaments are the same way. You always have people that try to game the system no matter what format it is.

I heard a new one the other day that's related to a tourney and not league, but still fitting. This friend of mine (lets call him Sam) says he was playing a tourney not too long ago and since there weren't beads above the table, he was marking his wins on the table in standard fashion with a coin. Keep in mind, this is like a race to 3 weekly tourney. After he moves his coin to the second diamond after his second win I believe, his opponent calls foul. Sam looks at the guy like what? His opponent says "You have been using that coin to mark your shot and that's a foul...." Now Sam trying not to laugh goes on to explain how he was only marking his wins with the coin and how it's pretty common. The guy looks at him and says "no it's not, I know what I'm doing I play league...." When he told me this story I couldn't stop laughing. He ended up calling the tourney director over and then the guy argued with him for a while too. Not sure what the end result was because I was laughing too hard when he was telling me.

Played this one night, with this new league member on my team. Handicap as low as you can get. Her turn is up, she breaks makes two balls, and a wide open table. Absolutely beautiful break. The other team's captain calls her up, and says that she has to re-break, because my teammate didn't shake her opponents hand. I was so dumbfounded that I didn't even finish processing what the other captain said, before my teammate started racking all the balls back together.

Skippy27 said:

Tournaments are the same way. You always have people that try to game the system no matter what format it is.

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True, but not every one of those types of people shows up to a weekly tournament. They show up every week for an entire season for league. There is also potential for the level of play to be higher in tournaments than league play, especially if the tournament is open style. I also approve of open leagues as well.

I just had a guy in a tournament 2 weeks ago, I think he was trying to shark me, but he said he never saw someone put the tip of their cue on the table a couple inches behind the object ball when lining up a shot. He said that he felt I was marking the table. I offered for him to come look at the table so he could see there were no marks, I also offered to wipe the chalk off of my tip too but he did not want this either, although he had no problem with me wiping the chalk off of the rails because he felt it necessary to put the chalk on the rail upside down. We went and talked to the TD and he told my opponent that he has seen many people use the tip off there cue when checking out a shot and looking at contact points, he said as long as I was not leaving chalk behind everything was OK. My opponent continued repeating that he never saw anyone do this before, when I finally told him I never seen anyone put the chalk upside down on the rail he finally quit flapping his yap. I still think it was a shark move.

As I am sure that it was in many pool halls last night, the value of leagues and what they do for the game was a huge discussion last night. A discussion that turned into other more heated discussions, but I will leave that out of it for now. Here is my feelings on league play. I believe that they are a necessary evil for the industry to continue spreading the game to the common player. I also feel however that it puts pool in a bad light for many reasons. Here are a few of my reasons on why
1. Beer- The pool halls and bars that host leagues do it because it is their biggest money maker on food and booze. That alone continues to keep the thought of pool as nothing more than a bar game that involves drinking.
2. Handicap- The majority of league players are extremely concerned about their handicap. I am confused on why if I practice 20 hours in a week and have to play a guy who only plays one night a week, why do I need to make things even for them. Participation trophy?
3.Great Pool- I have found that a large majority of league players have absolutely no idea what great pool is. I can not count how many times I have heard the "Oh, I play pool. I am real good and have gone to tournaments in Vegas". Every team has to have a 3, just because you went to Vegas doesnt mean you are any good.
4. Sharking- The argument was given last night that leagues are for social play. If that is the case, then why do so many league players attempt to shark the better players. They call ridiculous fouls, like the ones mentioned above about marking your ball. If this is supposed to be social, then why not just let your opponent play their game and be quiet.
5. Rules- Why does everyone want to think that their rules are better than the other league. Why dont we all adopt the same rules so that there isnt ever a question about which rules we are following.
6. Instruction- This one is a huge trigger for me. This isn't just in league play, but a lot more prevelant. Alot of league players believe that there is nothing that they can be taught when taken structured lessons that they can't learn from their team captain while at the table about to shoot. I was even informed last night of this. I have worked with a student in throughout many lessons. He had been playing 30 years and was a three. Even though he did not follow through as much as I would have liked, this season he was raised to a 4 and became the MVP of the 4's. I was told that it was not due to my instruction, but due to the team captain coaching this player occasionally in matches.

In my opinion, it is this kind of mentality that holds our country back from being able to grow this sport to where it could be. I don't care who you are. Even Tiger Woods had a coach when he was the #1 player in the world. Why are we so smug to think that our "feel" type of play is going to get us to where we need to be? Look at the way the train their players from Taipai and China. We could maybe learn a thing or two.

Understand, these are just my thoughts about leagues. I played in them multiple times with too many horrible situations that came up. If you have another point of view, i would love to hear it.

1. The better you get the more you realize beer hurts your game. Golf has a beer lady and it doesnt hurt their game as far as peoples view of it.

2. Without handicaps it is too hard on the ego for some. It provides a way to win while making very long term progress. Almost every sport has it and even the best players in the world handicap when gambling.

3. They need to feel they are good and I usually let them have it. If you really want you can challenge them to prove they're so good, sometimes it helps them and sometimes they live in denial.

4. Some people have no clue that they are doing it. Others cant handle pressure and feel it gives them control when not at the table. Many are just poor sports.

5. Rules are a way to differentiate leagues from one another. If you play on quarter tables I understand some of the differences.

6. If you help somebody, do it because you love the game. Dont do it so you can take credit when they do well. Some will acknowledge you and some wont. I would try not to take it so personal.

Couldnthinkof01,
Your right, Golf has a beer lady and it doesnt hurt the game. Golfers also gamble, but that doesnt hurt the game either. At the same time, beer and gambling is not the first thing that comes to mind when people think of golf. I currently run a program at a middle school teaching billiards. I had a teacher walk into my professional looking classroom and her first words were "all i need now is a beer and a cigarette". That is the image pool needs to get away from in order to reach it's full potential.

2. I understand what you mean about the ego. At the same time, I would be willing to bet that those getting this handicap would also be some of the first to brag about beating the highest rated player in their league. That gives off a false impression again of how good someone is.

3. Unfortunately, challenging the league players around here does nothing. There are a few around here that will play me, but once again they are asking for an enormous spot based off of what their league says I should spot them. Such as me pocketing 75 points to their 25 in 9 ball.

4. Completely agree with you on the sharking piece. I have also found though, if you inform them that they are doing it, several of them get mad that I even bring it up to them. Not all of them have, but most of them. (I also run a 9 ball tournament and as TD, I have run into this as well.)

5. Why do the league rules have to be what differentiate between the two leagues. Why not have the same rules, maybe different pay outs, different incentives to get your players in. Then in the end, have a National APA vs BCA battle of the champions from each Masters events.

6. I do help people because of the love of the game. At the same time, when I have a league player who has never taken any formal instruction before, bad mouth my instruction in front of several potential customers, it is very difficult not to take it personal. That is not only money out of my family's pockets, it ends up being the telephone game. Then eventually, some player that I have never met is going to turn down the idea of lessons because they heard somewhere that I was worth spending money. Dont think I do this for the money. Everything I have done over the past two months to get pool into school has been completely volunteer. I go and teach three days a week volunteering my time. At the same time, I paid for great instruction which eventually led me to be a recognized instructor through the PBIA, so I do charge for the lessons I give to adults.

I appreciate your feedback. Like I said, I am completely open to thoughts and criticism of my opinions on this forum. It enables me to be able to try to look at it from the different point of view.

Youthbilliards said:

Couldnthinkof01,
Your right, Golf has a beer lady and it doesnt hurt the game. Golfers also gamble, but that doesnt hurt the game either. At the same time, beer and gambling is not the first thing that comes to mind when people think of golf. I currently run a program at a middle school teaching billiards. I had a teacher walk into my professional looking classroom and her first words were "all i need now is a beer and a cigarette". That is the image pool needs to get away from in order to reach it's full potential.

2. I understand what you mean about the ego. At the same time, I would be willing to bet that those getting this handicap would also be some of the first to brag about beating the highest rated player in their league. That gives off a false impression again of how good someone is.

3. Unfortunately, challenging the league players around here does nothing. There are a few around here that will play me, but once again they are asking for an enormous spot based off of what their league says I should spot them. Such as me pocketing 75 points to their 25 in 9 ball.

4. Completely agree with you on the sharking piece. I have also found though, if you inform them that they are doing it, several of them get mad that I even bring it up to them. Not all of them have, but most of them. (I also run a 9 ball tournament and as TD, I have run into this as well.)

5. Why do the league rules have to be what differentiate between the two leagues. Why not have the same rules, maybe different pay outs, different incentives to get your players in. Then in the end, have a National APA vs BCA battle of the champions from each Masters events.

6. I do help people because of the love of the game. At the same time, when I have a league player who has never taken any formal instruction before, bad mouth my instruction in front of several potential customers, it is very difficult not to take it personal. That is not only money out of my family's pockets, it ends up being the telephone game. Then eventually, some player that I have never met is going to turn down the idea of lessons because they heard somewhere that I was worth spending money. Dont think I do this for the money. Everything I have done over the past two months to get pool into school has been completely volunteer. I go and teach three days a week volunteering my time. At the same time, I paid for great instruction which eventually led me to be a recognized instructor through the PBIA, so I do charge for the lessons I give to adults.

I appreciate your feedback. Like I said, I am completely open to thoughts and criticism of my opinions on this forum. It enables me to be able to try to look at it from the different point of view.

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Couldntthinkof01 gave some pretty good replies...not sure if I can add much to it. Cam.share my experience though


1..there are quite a few players around here that drink but then quite a few that dont. I pls on 5 teams and there is only player that drinks on one team but its only occasions and never more than 2 beers.

2..i have encountered a few players that developed egos and it did not take long for me to kick them off the team.

3. That also falls under ego problems

4..thankfully not many incidents of shark in around here ....or incidents of drama..it has happened a few times but I would venture to say in my case its happened around a half dozen times in over 1100 apa matches. Money league is a different story..nothing brings out the worse in people like money does. When it got to the point I almost went to fiat city with am opponent one night I knew I had to quit that league.

5..1 set of rules for all leagues..never gonna happen. Heck you have pro tournaments scattered all.over the states with different rules . No way you are gonna get all the competing leagues to adopt a standard set of rules.

6 now I am not am Instructor and never claimed to be anything but just an apa 5 but i have usually been the highest ranked player on every team.i played on and consequently was the one chosen to give time outs..for my peace of mind I quit calling time outs when I saw a lower level player start to make a mistake..most are not receptive to coaching at all..now I just wait for them to drew up and then look at me with a dumbfounded look on their face wanting me to come bail them out..

Lorider,
I have no doubt that their are players that don't drink. Even if everyone in your league did not drink, that doesn't change how the a lot of people views pool or leagues. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

As far as you being a coach for your team, I do not have any problem with coaches in league. That is what they are there for. During a match that quick little fix to help them make that particular shot or safety. I also don't doubt that a coach very well could be an instructor and build someones game up very high. What I took offense to was being told that the instruction given to my student by his coach was only during league matches. So it was literally a few times a night he gives a 10 sec instruction. Then down playing the many 3 hour lessons I had given this player over the course of a year. No longer a big deal.

As far as the rules piece, you are absolutely right. I have had discussions about that at larger tournaments many times. They all seem to want to be unique with their own set of rules. It is ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong, I do not have a problem with most league players. I have several strong friendships that I got through league and I am very thankful for. I not even ruling out eventually playing in a league again eventually. We are all just pool players trying to get better and have fun doing it.
Appreciate your thoughts Lorider

tonythetiger583 said:

Played this one night, with this new league member on my team. Handicap as low as you can get. Her turn is up, she breaks makes two balls, and a wide open table. Absolutely beautiful break. The other team's captain calls her up, and says that she has to re-break, because my teammate didn't shake her opponents hand. I was so dumbfounded that I didn't even finish processing what the other captain said, before my teammate started racking all the balls back together.

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Was this an APA league match???

sbpoolleague said:

Was this an APA league match???

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Why does it matter what league this incident happened in ? All leagues have good people that are good sports....adhere to whatever rules they are playing under and then you have the assholes in every league that try to bend the rules in their favor or interpret rules to suit them.

Why dont you comment on the op post since it pertains to the league you favor so much ?

I find as a general rule, the people who are nit-picky and try to squeeze every drop of technicality out of rules to the point of absurdity, are generally pretty terrible pool players. I find if you play against people who actually have a modicum of control and agency over their ability to win a game, are usually much better sports.

It usually doesn't bother me. Do whatever you gotta do, I'm still going to beat you. It just bugs me when these people pick on other people who are new. It does give them an advantage, and it ruins it for the newcomers. And you know the newbie will believe the other person just because they're so vindictive about it.

My personal pet peeve is low level players that seem to need my absolute undivided attention. I'll be watching the table and watching them shoot, but that's not nearly enough. Every shot, they need me to make eye contact with them and they'll scream the ball they want to pocket, and won't proceed till I look at them, then look at the ball, then look at the pocket, then look back at them, and say "OKAY" loud enough for them to hear while nodding my head furiously.

Then on my shot, I'll get down and I'll hear a voice scream "WAIT!", "what are you calling?!?!?". I'll look at the ball hanging in the pocket, and at the cueball like straight-in a diamond away...I think you'll know it when you see it bud. I don't plan on getting to crazy here.

Or the tournament ref will get called over like 5-6 times a game by my opponent to watch a shot. I'll tell the ref what I'm about to do, and we'll both kinda roll our eyes. On more than one occasion the ref has to ask the other person "Seriously dude, why am I here?". I guess my object ball is close to his object ball in the sense that they're on the same table.

And it's usually these same people that will double hit the ball or fail to hit a bank and try and pass if off as good.

My first team captain would get angry at me a lot, because I called foul on myself every time, or that I would call a ref over to watch my shot. Something something about it being my opponent's responsibility to watch me like a hawk, and if they don't see it, it's all good.

Also I had to be coached to not pick up the cueball after my opponent obviously scratches, because even if I know you fouled, and you know you fouled, and you know I know you fouled, unless I scream "BALL IN HAND?!?!?" and you say "yes", it's a foul for me to touch the cueball. I get that the rule is in place to prevent confusion and mix-up's, but the idea that someone would abuse it, disgusts me.

Sorry for the rant I love playing in league, but when I was new (which wasn't too long ago), it was very stressful having these people lean on me with their bogus technicalities and often times, made up rules. Only now that I'm better, and they're still bad does it seem a little funny.

Speaking of made-up, one of my earliest experiences was a (what I thought was really good at the time) player convincing me that since they sank the 8 ball out of turn, that the loss was recorded as 7-10, even though they still had 6 of their balls on the table.

tonythetiger583 said:

I find as a general rule, the people who are nit-picky and try to squeeze every drop of technicality out of rules to the point of absurdity, are generally pretty terrible pool players. I find if you play against people who actually have a modicum of control and agency over their ability to win a game, are usually much better sports.

It usually doesn't bother me. Do whatever you gotta do, I'm still going to beat you. It just bugs me when these people pick on other people who are new. It does give them an advantage, and it ruins it for the newcomers. And you know the newbie will believe the other person just because they're so vindictive about it.

My personal pet peeve is low level players that seem to need my absolute undivided attention. I'll be watching the table and watching them shoot, but that's not nearly enough. Every shot, they need me to make eye contact with them and they'll scream the ball they want to pocket, and won't proceed till I look at them, then look at the ball, then look at the pocket, then look back at them, and say "OKAY" loud enough for them to hear while nodding my head furiously.

Then on my shot, I'll get down and I'll hear a voice scream "WAIT!", "what are you calling?!?!?". I'll look at the ball hanging in the pocket, and at the cueball like straight-in a diamond away...I think you'll know it when you see it bud. I don't plan on getting to crazy here.

Or the tournament ref will get called over like 5-6 times a game by my opponent to watch a shot. I'll tell the ref what I'm about to do, and we'll both kinda roll our eyes. On more than one occasion the ref has to ask the other person "Seriously dude, why am I here?". I guess my object ball is close to his object ball in the sense that they're on the same table.

And it's usually these same people that will double hit the ball or fail to hit a bank and try and pass if off as good.

My first team captain would get angry at me a lot, because I called foul on myself every time, or that I would call a ref over to watch my shot. Something something about it being my opponent's responsibility to watch me like a hawk, and if they don't see it, it's all good.

Also I had to be coached to not pick up the cueball after my opponent obviously scratches, because even if I know you fouled, and you know you fouled, and you know I know you fouled, unless I scream "BALL IN HAND?!?!?" and you say "yes", it's a foul for me to touch the cueball. I get that the rule is in place to prevent confusion and mix-up's, but the idea that someone would abuse it, disgusts me.

Sorry for the rant I love playing in league, but when I was new (which wasn't too long ago), it was very stressful having these people lean on me with their bogus technicalities and often times, made up rules. Only now that I'm better, and they're still bad does it seem a little funny.

Speaking of made-up, one of my earliest experiences was a (what I thought was really good at the time) player convincing me that since they sank the 8 ball out of turn, that the loss was recorded as 7-10, even though they still had 6 of their balls on the table.

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I don't want you to think I'm trying to bash league because as I have said many times overall I like league. But with that being said, I've found that many league players tend to be very " Douchey " for lack of better word. I say that without even taking any " Nittyness " into consideration . With your thing I'd say one of two things are going on - either they are really unsure of what they're doing and want you're approval OR in some way they are trying to show off to get your approval lol. Best thing I could say to you which is what works for me is to NOT take anything serious that is league related. Just always say something like " good shot, nod your head, turn around and do your shot or beer " - that seems to cover most things lol. If you let them, the lower level leaguers will absolutely bug the pees out of you. If you're OK with that sort of thing then cool, I a, not, nor will I ever be. If it ever gets too too bad just tell them I'll teach you everything you need to know for $20 a game, 5 mimimum, one hour max!!!!

lorider said:

Why does it matter what league this incident happened in ? All leagues have good people that are good sports....adhere to whatever rules they are playing under and then you have the assholes in every league that try to bend the rules in their favor or interpret rules to suit them.

Why dont you comment on the op post since it pertains to the league you favor so much ?

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Sorry, you would NEVER see that shit pulled in our league. But you are right. I'm sure I could find this behavior in a non-APA league somewhere.