When does english reverse?

I've always understood this concept with the english (left & right) to reverse off of the second cushion and the gear concept of reversal upon contact with object balls. Then with draw and follow will actually reverse off the first cushion.

Am I correct in this understanding?

When in doubt, just go to the other side of the table and face the rail you want to draw into. then look at what english you would have to put on the cueball if you were just hitting it into that rail to either widen, or shorten the angle. Go back to your shot and do it.

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This is the simplest answer (of a few variants in this thread). It didn't "reverse" ...it took as it was applied.

The plus side? You've learned a new shot! ...even if accidentally

bdorman said:

When does english reverse?

I had the situation in this picture this morning. I figured I'd use low/left to draw the CB back to the cushion and rebound with more angle than a mirror image would achieve (trying to get decent position on the 2-ball).

But instead, the CB rebounded off the cushion almost parallel with the headstring...the exact opposite of what I expected. I didn't have time to try it again to see for myself, so I'm turning to my AZB experts.

I seem to recall hearing that english reverses in certain shots. When does english reverse? Or, did I just mis-hit the CB?

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English does not reverse, ever. Left is left and right is right, always.

However, once the cue ball started heading back to the rail you were standing by, then it was moving in a different direction. It still had left spin though. You have to think of the effect that the spin will have off the rail when the cue ball is moving forward. After you draw it back, forward is now the opposite. If you picture yourself standing on the other side of the table, watching the cue ball - after it hits the object ball, and is then drawn back - then it would be moving forward. (While planning shots like this, I actually catch myself sort of starting to turn my body around and face the opposite direction to visualize the cue ball moving in that direction :embarrassed2

Fatz

owll said:

by any chance would you like to play some one pocket....i can fly to iowa.

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I wasn't referring to one pocket and unless I miss read it don't believe the OP was either. I will adjust on what I do based upon the type of game I am playing...try not to read too much into me saying its not the most important thing to get that extra foot or two.

VIProfessor said:

I have to disagree. Drawing to the rail with english to widen the angle and get down (or up) table when you are straight on a ball is an important recovery shot that is part of any good player's standard arsenal. A player at a high C level or above should definitely be working to place this shot in the 'no problem' category, IMO.

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IF you are in a rutt, or during a match playing like crap...are you going to go for that extra foot or two to get just a bit better shape, or are you going to try to make balls and get out? Just me personally...but I am going to get back to the basics and just get out even if I have to shoot a little extra long shot. No need to compound mistakes (potentially) when I am not shooting well.

McPostal said:

If you were facing that rail, would you use left or right? That is your answer. It seems like the english reverses only because you are facing the opposite direction.

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That's a good answer, I like it. Another simple way to look at it: Look at the shot and do the opposite of what the shot "looks like" it calls for.

I think Spimp is being a little misunderstood. Basically he was saying that if the angle is the same, fretting over being 1 foot closer to the OB wasn't a huge deal. I agree with that so long as the angle remains the same.

Cdryden said:

I think Spimp is being a little misunderstood.

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Story of my life!! Good discussion thread though. I can definitely come up with shots like Cdryden is talking about where it can severely improve my angle that is important to which I agreed with.

bdorman said:

When does english reverse?

I had the situation in this picture this morning. I figured I'd use low/left to draw the CB back to the cushion and rebound with more angle than a mirror image would achieve (trying to get decent position on the 2-ball).

But instead, the CB rebounded off the cushion almost parallel with the headstring...the exact opposite of what I expected. I didn't have time to try it again to see for myself, so I'm turning to my AZB experts.

I seem to recall hearing that english reverses in certain shots. When does english reverse? Or, did I just mis-hit the CB?

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It reverses when you're hitting with reverse (going backwards aka drawing the ball). That's as muddy as the question.

ShanksMcShankly said:

I've always understood this concept with the english (left & right) to reverse off of the second cushion and the gear concept of reversal upon contact with object balls. Then with draw and follow will actually reverse off the first cushion.

Am I correct in this understanding?

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Incorrect.

"Reverse" english means sidespin that causes the cueball to rebound from the rail
at a sharper/shorter/narrower angle than the angle it would take if it were just rolling naturally.
Also called "check" or "holdup".

"Running" english means the ball hits the rail and rebounds at a wider/longer angle.

So, in your diagram, reverse english is any sidespin that makes the cue's path go to the right
of your "Mirror angle, no english" line.

To complicate things, sometimes people will talk about causing the cue ball to reverse,
but using some other means besides sidespin. Like if you drill the object ball warp speed into the rail,
it shortens the angle and may 'reverse' off the second rail. But I wouldn't call that "Reverse english" because
no english was harmed in the making of this shot.

The ball "reversed" without the use of sidespin, but "Reverse" english always implies some form of sidespin.

That particular shot, (I down loaded it), was in a short video demonstration by St. Louie Louie.

He puts low right on the cue ball and it also looked very much like he would give his wrist a good twist also.

I have practiced this shot many times and it will take the cue ball down table and give you your shot on the short rail.

How many times will you find yourself in this position to have to make this shot.
Answer - Lots. Its a very good shot to learn. It has saved my butt many times. It does take a bit of practice, but not a tone. You will find that while you are practicing it, the cue ball will end up on either side of the next object ball, or in other positions. But any way, it will give you a decent look at the two.
The more you practice it, the easier it will become.

Thanks Louie.

There is a vid by Grady Mathews where he shows that any english stays on the ball till it stops or really slows down. Earl always wants a table that keeps the english on the cb for 3-4 rails. Check out the tar podcast of the last Earl/ Shane match.

CreeDo said:

"Reverse" english means sidespin that causes the cueball to rebound from the rail
at a sharper/shorter/narrower angle than the angle it would take if it were just rolling naturally.
Also called "check" or "holdup".

"Running" english means the ball hits the rail and rebounds at a wider/longer angle.

So, in your diagram, reverse english is any sidespin that makes the cue's path go to the right
of your "Mirror angle, no english" line.

To complicate things, sometimes people will talk about causing the cue ball to reverse,
but using some other means besides sidespin. Like if you drill the object ball warp speed into the rail,
it shortens the angle and may 'reverse' off the second rail. But I wouldn't call that "Reverse english" because
no english was harmed in the making of this shot.

The ball "reversed" without the use of sidespin, but "Reverse" english always implies some form of sidespin.

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That's true, but in context, he is talking about reverse being backspin, and then what happens off the rail when the cb is drawing to the rail.

ShanksMcShankly said:

I've always understood this concept with the english (left & right) to reverse off of the second cushion and the gear concept of reversal upon contact with object balls. Then with draw and follow will actually reverse off the first cushion.

Am I correct in this understanding?

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If you hit a rail with running english, and then it hits an adjoining rail, it will still have running english off the second rail. It is only when the second rail is opposite the first rail , such as top long rail to top long rail on the other side of the table, that the english "seems" to reverse. In reality, the spin has not reversed, it's still spinning the same direction. It's just that it seems reversed because the direction of the ball reversed.

Here is the video of St, Louie.

The entire video is interesting but you can advance to 13:30 for the power draw shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G13l_W_UI4

someone earlier said, that English never reverses....I disagree with that statement...I may be wrong, Im not sure.

Here is an entertaining shot on diamond tables. Fairly tight angle bank into side pocket. Bank ball long with inside English. Hits 4" past side pocket, and then reverses cross side into other side pocket. With inside English, this shot should go farther away from second side pocket, not reverse right back into it. (if I don't hit this shot hard enough ive actually had it reverse several inches past second side pocket).

Unless Im really misunderstanding something here, that inside English I have on that bank, HAS to reverse for that bank to come back like that.

If anyone could explain this one to me, Id appreciate it, because this one I cant figure out on my own.

Blue Hog ridr said:

Here is the video of St, Louie.

The entire video is interesting but you can advance to 13:30 for the power draw shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G13l_W_UI4

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I love how all old school players say "english" when saying "draw," but many newer players seem to get all nutty if someone today says "draw english" for example.

Lots of people said it and it's on video (Mataya for example also says it). I think they know more.

Freddie <~~~ doesn't say it, but doesn't get nutty

here is an interesting shot, shooting a ball close to a side rail, close to straight with a little angle, and want to leave cue near the pocket that object ball is pocketed in.

Options. (object ball and cue close to right rail, small angle)
Straight top: and follow it up
Top left: top sends it up, and left flattens the angle out a little.
Top right: (must stroke this one well) top sends it up, and right makes the cue bend (masse) back toward the rail it just came off of (can scratch this one same pocket as object ball if you bend cue ball too much).

I think this shot is interesting because you can put the cue ball in exact same end position using top left, AND top right. Also, the less obvious one (top right), can be more effective. If top left is going to put me 4 or 5" from next ball im shooting at, instead of using top left and trying to be absolutely perfect with speed control, Ill use top right, bend it in there (hoping I don't scratch lol) and that extra distance between cue and object ball means I don't have to be quite as accurate with speed control to have a nice makeable shot.

Just wanted to mention this, for the newer players to try and to experiment with, and to see some of the occasionally weird stuff that can be accomplished.

owll said:

someone earlier said, that English never reverses....I disagree with that statement...I may be wrong, Im not sure.

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That would have been me. For this discussion, I am referring to the cue ball ONLY. Let's say you put left on the cue ball. If you look straight down from above, that would be clockwise. Now if the cue ball contacts another ball or a rail, hence changes direction, the spin on the cue ball is still going to be clockwise. The rotation of the earth doesn't just stop and turn around and go in the other direction.

Now this clockwise spin is the same thing as saying left spin no matter what angle you are looking at it from. If you go around to the other side of the table and look from the north, or look from the south, east, west it will always be left and when looking from above it will always be clockwise.

Now when answering the OP's question, I was saying it is important to visualize the cue ball as it approaches the rail in order to know what effect that spin is going to have coming off the rail. In determining that, you have to judge it in the context of the cue ball moving in the forward direction (noting that linear direction is a different thing than spin direction).

And to address another thing too, I also notice a lot of people using the term English wrongly. English is left and right spin. Top and bottom spin is not supposed to be called English. But hey, what are you going to do.

owll said:

Here is an entertaining shot on diamond tables. Fairly tight angle bank into side pocket. Bank ball long with inside English. Hits 4" past side pocket, and then reverses cross side into other side pocket. With inside English, this shot should go farther away from second side pocket, not reverse right back into it. (if I don't hit this shot hard enough ive actually had it reverse several inches past second side pocket).

Unless Im really misunderstanding something here, that inside English I have on that bank, HAS to reverse for that bank to come back like that.

If anyone could explain this one to me, Id appreciate it, because this one I cant figure out on my own.

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Now, in this case, you are involving another ball. The spin of the cue ball is not changing. But some of the energy from the spin from the cue ball is transfered, in some form, to the object ball, causing it to spin (or appear to spin?) in the opposite direction. That may be an over-simplification, but makes my point. Also, if you are hitting it hard, that shortens the angle of bounce off the rail, and exaggerates the overall effect of the direction change of the object ball off that rail. Great shot to know.

Fatz