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12-16-2017, 08:27 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
If he's one of your best friends, ask him! I mean WTF. Have him give you a complete verbal lesson over the phone. It's really not complicated and should take no more than 5 minutes on the phone. Especially now since you have a better understanding of the groundwork of how it's done based on everything posted here.

I'd really like to know.
I'll ask him. More for your curiosity than mine. I'll give him a call.


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12-16-2017, 08:44 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
I have a "put on your thinking cap question for you". Lets assume the cut angle is a CCB to COB shot. With Mike's method for a cut you would pivot to 1/4 ball and then take the stroke.

Do you think it's possible to line up CCB to COB and start the stroke straight back from there but then either tuck or roll to end up having the cue align to 1/4 ball at the strike on the CB?
In Bold above.

Yes. I have never thought of this. It took quite a few shots to get it to work. The hard part of this was not trying to aim to hit 1/4 ball and depend on Roll to send the cue ball to the 1/4 OB point.

I can't imagine why I would ever use this method.

But I'm sure this exercise will lead to another interesting technique.

John


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12-16-2017, 08:58 AM

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Originally Posted by One Pocket John View Post
In Bold above.

Yes. I have never thought of this. It took quite a few shots to get it to work. The hard part of this was not trying to aim to hit 1/4 ball and depend on Roll to send the cue ball to the 1/4 OB point.

WE HAVE A WINNER! Correct answer.

I can't imagine why I would ever use this method.

But I'm sure this exercise will lead to another interesting technique.

John
It can be done either with Tuck or Roll as well as dynamic BHE instead of preset BHE.

When you do it with tuck or roll, the key is in the timing of the tuck and roll and how forcefully you do it. IOW, it can't be a partial tuck and roll that comes into contact with the CB too late. It needs to be more of a hard full tuck and roll done to completion before impact.

Why might you ever use it? Just for the hell of it to see the extremes you can take it to and what "MIGHT" happen if a tuck or roll is done INADVERTANTLY when trying to use a totally straight stroke.

I think a lot of players are tucking and rolling ever so slightly without knowing it, miss the shot and don't know why. My theory is, do it controlled on purpose and know what the outcomes will be instead of accidentally and can't figure it out.

Does that make any sense?
  
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12-16-2017, 09:23 AM

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12-16-2017, 09:37 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
It can be done either with Tuck or Roll as well as dynamic BHE instead of preset BHE.

When you do it with tuck or roll, the key is in the timing of the tuck and roll and how forcefully you do it. IOW, it can't be a partial tuck and roll that comes into contact with the CB too late. It needs to be more of a hard full tuck and roll done to completion before impact.

Why might you ever use it? Just for the hell of it to see the extremes you can take it to and what "MIGHT" happen if a tuck or roll is done INADVERTANTLY when trying to use a totally straight stroke.

I think a lot of players are tucking and rolling ever so slightly without knowing it, miss the shot and don't know why. My theory is, do it controlled on purpose and know what the outcomes will be instead of accidentally and can't figure it out.

Does that make any sense?
Yes. In fact, after this experiment I started using Little Mike's shooting style and instead of using parallel placement of the cue stick to apply spin I reverted back to a Tuck or Roll on shots. The T&R is only applied on the delivery stroke from CCB.

Don't get me wrong, when I use a parallel delivery of the cue one side of the cue shaft is always on the center vertical line of the cue ball.

I like what Little Mike is teaching in all of the videos. He sure does drive home some good pointers.

Thanks

John


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12-16-2017, 09:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Low500 View Post
Kinda' like in a real gym where men lift the weights, sweat, grunt, fart, snarl, beat the heavy bag, and bust their ass. The fun comes later when the honeys tell you what great legs you have.
P.L.
The fun comes later when the honeys correctly compliment which one of the 3 legs you have is great
  
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12-16-2017, 10:04 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post

.........

I think a lot of players are tucking and rolling ever so slightly without knowing it, miss the shot and don't know why. My theory is, do it controlled on purpose and know what the outcomes will be instead of accidentally and can't figure it out.

Does that make any sense?
Perfect sense. That's the major flaw for the average amateur player -- not having a consistent enough stroke to hit the CB where they think they are hitting it. Being off 1mm on the CB strike can cause a miss. When the balls are close together you can be off much more and still get the the OB to the pocket. But with a couple of feet or more between CB and OB, and about 3ft or more between OB and pocket, the cue tip must strike the CB very precisely or you'll find yourself watching the other player take control after your missed shot.

So by trying to incorporate a tuck-n-roll spin, if your stroke/CB striking isn't very consistent then your ball-pocketing skills will be inconsistent. In other words, if a player can't hit an accurate 1/2 tip or full tip spot for english on the CB, while using a preset stroke to that exact spot, then it's very unlikely that they'll be able to hit that spot by swiping or tucking in or out from a CCB alignment on that final stroke. From close range a with wide margin of error, sure. But not from any distance, not until they develop a good enough stroke.


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12-16-2017, 10:07 AM

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All of this stuff is just my opinions and nothing more...each person approaches training in their own way I suppose.
My rehearsal routines are quite grueling and boring.
It's a mental war to keep concentrated. Especially since I will devote 200 shots a day to nothing but cueball frozen to the rail with object balls "way off in the distance". Not fun.
But that's what a training table is for, in my opinion. To WORK...and not have fun. Nobody gets to know I even have a table. No grandchildren, no neighbors, no relatives, or in-laws. "They" don't need to know anything...nothing. Like old Mister T said in one of those old "Rocky" movies...."I train alone, I stay alone, nobody knows where I go".
Kinda' like in a real gym where men lift the weights, sweat, grunt, fart, snarl, beat the heavy bag, and bust their ass. The fun comes later when the honeys tell you what great legs you have.
The fun in pool comes when the training pays off and you get the money from combat after crushing one of those "know-it-alls". (in a most politically correct way, of course, where he'll come back for more)
I rely on Bert Kinister's 60 Minute Workout for 9 Ball and rehearse it constantly.
I rely also on a routine old Ray Martin taught once at a clinic. Bust the 15 ball rack wide open...take the cueball in hand and pocket all the balls in no particular order. (not as easy as it sounds). Then do it again..then again...then again, etc. etc.
Your plan of shooting the 15 ball rack in rotation is being added to the sweat. (your plan sounds better than what I hear from most 'instructors'..............and the price is right too).
Keep on truckin'

P.L.
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12-16-2017, 10:29 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
If he's one of your best friends, ask him! I mean WTF. Have him give you a complete verbal lesson over the phone. It's really not complicated and should take no more than 5 minutes on the phone. Especially now since you have a better understanding of the groundwork of how it's done based on everything posted here.

I'd really like to know.
He said TS taught him 3 pivot-style systems. He liked Shishkabob best, but says he does his own version of it instead of exactly how TS showed him. Sounds like straight-up Shishkabob to me.

1) choose which reference to use on the OB.
2) come into the shot with cue lined a 1/2 tip from CCB straight to the chosen reference point on the OB.
3) pivot to CCB and shoot.

I asked about distance and whether or not he compensates for changes by varying his bridge length or tweaking the reference point on the OB. He said it took him a while to get good at at, so he might be doing some fine tuning like that automatically, based on what looks right.


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12-16-2017, 11:01 AM

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He said TS taught him 3 pivot-style systems. He liked Shishkabob best, but says he does his own version of it instead of exactly how TS showed him. Sounds like straight-up Shishkabob to me.

What you describe below is straight up Hal Houle original Shishkabob. As long as the offset is coming from the INSIDE back to CCB. NOT outside to CCB. It can be 1/2 tip or full tip.

1) choose which reference to use on the OB.
2) come into the shot with cue lined a 1/2 tip from CCB straight to the chosen reference point on the OB.
3) pivot to CCB and shoot.

I asked about distance and whether or not he compensates for changes by varying his bridge length or tweaking the reference point on the OB. He said it took him a while to get good at at, so he might be doing some fine tuning like that automatically, based on what looks right.
Bridge length isn't a factor. Distance can be if it starts getting 3/4 to especially full length of the table The tip of the cue almost appears as large as the OB at a certain distance.
  
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12-16-2017, 11:14 AM

Good thread guys!
  
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12-16-2017, 11:25 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post

So by trying to incorporate a tuck-n-roll spin, if your stroke/CB striking isn't very consistent then your ball-pocketing skills will be inconsistent. In other words, if a player can't hit an accurate 1/2 tip or full tip spot for english on the CB, while using a preset stroke to that exact spot, then it's very unlikely that they'll be able to hit that spot by swiping or tucking in or out from a CCB alignment on that final stroke. From close range a with wide margin of error, sure. But not from any distance, not until they develop a good enough stroke.
That's not what I meant but it's my fault for not explaining it properly. You would be correct for a weak, underdeveloped player who has stroke issues and inconsistency to begin with. Not a strong player though.

But here's what I did mean. You preset your hand and wrist in a precocked tuck or roll position and keep it that way.

If you're in a "straight back of wrist" position with a fairly loose grip and especially when the nerves are causing a flinch or jumping out of your skin, the hand can twitch in a TWO WAY error. Turn either under or up and it'll change the cue orientation coming back into impact for a miss. Could be on the right side or the left side of the CB and angled.

Watch Stan's wrist position when he shoots from behind and from the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uar8s9kbqdI

I picked up on this in one of his videos and asked him if he knew he did it. It's in what is called an ARCHED wrist position with the hand tucked under and the wrist ARCHED or BOWED outward. A very strong locked wrist position. There's only one possible way to go from here which is roll it back to a neutral or bent position. He can't tuck any further because he's already there. It never changes from setup, to backstroke, to impact, to follow through.

He said yes, he knows he does it because a pro player told him about this setup and why it was the best and strong way to play. He said it took a while to get used to it after all the years of being neutral, but it's definitely the better way to stroke and play the game.

Does THAT make sense?


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12-16-2017, 11:30 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
Bridge length isn't a factor. Distance can be if it starts getting 3/4 to especially full length of the table The tip of the cue almost appears as large as the OB at a certain distance.
That's it, pivot from inside. And I think what he has done to consider it an add-on to Hal's system, a customized tweak so to speak, is slightly vary the bridge distance to offset any distance factor when needed. It works. You can either come up with bridge variations or change the offset of the pivot. This makes it possible to fine-tune the system instead of simply accepting what it gives you.


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12-16-2017, 11:34 AM

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Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm View Post
That's not what I meant but it's my fault for not explaining it properly. You would be correct for a weak, underdeveloped player who has stroke issues and inconsistency to begin with. Not a strong player though.

But here's what I did mean. You preset your hand and wrist in a precocked tuck or roll position and keep it that way.

If you're in a "straight back of wrist" position with a fairly loose grip and especially when the nerves are causing a flinch or jumping out of your skin, the hand can twitch in a TWO WAY error. Turn either under or up and it'll change the cue orientation coming back into impact for a miss. Could be on the right side or the left side of the CB and angled.

Watch Stan's wrist position when he shoots from behind and from the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uar8s9kbqdI

I picked up on this in one of his videos and asked him if he knew he did it. It's in what is called an ARCHED wrist position with the hand tucked under and the wrist ARCHED or BOWED outward. A very strong locked wrist position. There's only one possible way to go from here which is roll it back to a neutral or bent position. He can't tuck any further because he's already there. It never changes from setup, to backstroke, to impact, to follow through.

He said yes, he knows he does it because a pro player told him about this setup and why it was the best and strong way to play. He said it took a while to get used to it after all the years of being neutral, but it's definitely the better way to stroke and play the game.

Does THAT make sense?

You can see this cocked wrist in Landon's stroke on a few shots also. And I thought it was just a stroke flaw that he's learned to work with, but maybe it's just tuck and roll shots as you describe.


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12-16-2017, 11:35 AM

I tried StD system today and it didn't work for me at all, I tried hip/body and BHE pivot to the aim spot on the OB, category 1 and 2, the OB just went straight where I was aiming in the prepivot position.

Maybe its because I use an LD shaft, 314-2? Or maybe it happens that my bridge distance is just about my shafts BHE pivot point, I have no idea.
  
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