Basic, Novice, production cue questions (esp finish)

Real novice at this and looking to understand a bit better.

With a home table got a bunch of Brunswick Centennial cues.

Took one to BilliardBills's and he sold me a OB Pro LD shaft and precision layered tip medium (very nice guy, very helpful BTW). This was my experimentation into LD cues.

LD aspect: honestly I put so little left/right spin with so little aiming control not much difference to me, and that's not my question.

I found I really liked the smaller shaft diameter (11.75mm) I think, it just felt better. I liked it.

We wanted another cue for when lots of people come over, to have some choices, so on a whim I ordered a Player Pure-X HTX 65 at 12mm with Kamui Tan Medium (figured it was close).

Wow, has a huge difference in feel, and therein is my first question:

1. The OB Pro has what (remember I do not know what I'm talking about) varnish-like finish end to end. Smooth and well done, but has a varnish like feel.
   
2. The Centennial cues had a more bare wood feel, but clearly some kind of finish, maybe just a sealer? Felt more wood like, but still kind of glossy.
   
3. The Pure-X, beginning about halfway down the shaft, has a much more wood feel, less varnish-like by far, incredibly smooth and slick but (using a paint term) more fine satin than gloss.

One other side note - I assumed I was buying a pre-built shaft with the Pure-X, but the invoice said that Seyberts turned it down. So maybe this feel is where they did the refinish?

The question is: is there a term for these kind of finishes? On that Pure-X am I feeling plain wood, is it just a sealer, is it varnished with something (and I'm feeling a satin vs gloss type difference)?

I find I really like the feel of the Pure-X better, by the way. And I do not suggest any of these cues are wrong or right, I'm just trying to understand the finishing process a bit. For example, if I ordered a OB shaft in the future, will it come like that OB Pro, is there a way to request it differently (i.e. what words would one use)? And/or can someone like Bill refinish it (easily)?

Or is it related to the wood - the OB is a laminate, the Player is (I think?) solid maple? Maybe except the end (I tried to find details on them but could not). Does that drive the surface feel in some fashion, that the laminate requires a thicker coating?

BigBoof said:

I know my repair guy seals shafts when he does a top change. It is likely Bill did something to the shaft when he put the precision tip on.

Bottom line, I expect a new OB shaft will have a 3rd feel for you to deal with.

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No, I actually watched while he did it, he did not change the shaft itself other than to remove a portion of the joint to match, otherwise he just did the tip. Of course he may have done something to it beforehand.

So interesting.

Maybe I should ask this way - it sounds common for different finishes to be applied, is it common to ask that they be changed, or is it usually just whatever was done is what you stick with? I have no idea how easy it would be to turn them and remove/redo the finish. To me lathes are magic above my pay grade.

KMRUNOUT said:

Most aftermarket shafts are not "varnished". OB definitely isn't.

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Interesting. This one is. I'm not sure about the ones that look bare, but the OB has a definite coating that looks a bit like a think polyurethane or similar, very slightly yellow. It's consistent from tip to tail, and what looks like the original OB logo is still there. The queue is a radial ply composite, I assumed it was just a side effect of the glue holding the pieces together?

Interesting. I don't know if this helps or not, I tried to take a closeup view of the two cues. These are color adjusted to be the same white balance to show the wood/finish color. The first is the OB Pro, the second is the HTX.

Seeing it is not like touching it, I realize. Notice on the OB that there's not much texture visible, but on the HTX you can (especially as it curves down and there's some shadow) texture because the grain is open. The OB has some kind of coating.

So maybe it was waxed after purchase?

Please note I'm not complaining, I'm learning.

Also, the OB is labeled "OB Pro" and I think from reading that means it's a pretty old shaft.

Kim Bye said:

Even with a good cleaning, shaft sealer and burnishing,laminated shafts never really seem to get the same glass like surface that a well made solid maple shaft can.

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I am enjoying the feel of the HTX. It's probably not as good of a shaft in some ways (LD aspects especially) but the smooth feel is very nice.

Scott Lee said:

Linwood...Use a glove and it will not make any difference what shaft you use. You might really like the Predator Revo shaft that I had when I came to your house last year. Are you ready for some more instruction? :grin:

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Hi Scott, how are you. I actually was thinking of buying the Revo cue and shaft based on your comments, but everywhere I looked was out. Wife said we needed a couple more cues, I figured that was permission -- she didn't say which, and hopefully won't ask the prices.

One more slot on the wall rack to fill.

Not that at my level of play the cue makes any real difference. Though I am almost to the point I do not need to refer to my notes to know which end of the cue to hit the ball with. :scratchhead:

More instruction - no, I need you to come get me away from work, remodeling, photography and other competing interests and make me practice. We had the table covered for about 6 weeks while grinding concrete and then sheetrock nearby. Tough to get better at pool while painting (etc).

But nice to hear from you, that was a terrific day and I learned a lot!

OK, after a bit more play I have definitely decided....

I do not like the no-wrap on the PureX cue (not it's fault, I purposely ordered it to try one).

I do like the sound/feel of the PureX better than the OB-pro (subjective, not functional difference in my mind), but I find the PureX FAR more likely to mis-cue.

Which brings me to the next question:

I ordered a Kamui Tan Medium on the new cue, and the OB Pro has a "Precision Layered Tip" medium that Billiard Bill used.

I realize that mis-cue is always my fault, but... I really do sense I can hit much further off center with the OB-Pro. is that the Tip, or the cue (e.g. front weight, etc)?

The obvious answer (and I may take a shot at it) is to go get bill to put a new Precision Layered Tip on the PureX, so I'm doing apples to apples, but wondering if people have insight?

And the final thing is I really love the smooth feel of the PureX, and am growing to hate the OB Pro in comparison. I did a lot of web searching and apparently that older cue is one that had a very different finish. So could a cuemaker like Bill turn that down with some sandpaper or otherwise and give me a finish similar to the (solid not ply I think) PureX, or is the radial ply structure and glue from that vintage such it will never be as smooth?

hang-the-9 said:

Without actually watch you play and test the shaft it's a bit hard to tell why one shaft is miscuing more.

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So without seeing me shoot, but assuming my mistakes are similar with the two cues, does the tip or the shaft have more effect, or are you saying "neither, it's all you"?

I went by Billiard Bills today and got some work done.

The OB Pro shaft now is a slick, smooth, perfect finish. He also cleaned up the Pure-X shaft a bit as well, and by feel I cannot tell the difference in surface feel.

MUCH Better feel now to the OB Pro. Considerable improvement.

I also had him match tips, so the Pure-X has the same medium Precision Layer Tip.

Also a vast improvement in miscue rate. To the above comments on stroke -- I get it, I'm ultimately the cause, but whatever my stroke is, however bad or good, it's mostly the same for both, and what I was finding was one mis-cued a lot more than the other. Now not at all. About the same.

I spent quite a bit of time afterwards trying repeated shots with one cue then the next. I hot a stripe, and tried hitting hard right at the stripe boundary with fresh chalk (to check where it hit), and whereas previously especially on draw shots the Pure-X would be bouncing balls off the table, now not at all. And no difference between the cues in my non-rigorous testing. I attribute the prior difference to the tip. At least for me, in my setup.

FWIW while doing this, I was noting the angle off the rail (i.e. how much spin I managed to actually impart), and found the two almost identical, which I take as a sign (similar to the chalk mark on the stripe edge) that I'm getting the same ability to spin with both prior to a mis-cue. I don't think I am accurate enough to comment on the squirt really, but in trying to see a difference I failed. Hit hard the length of the table, trying to hit parallel to a diamond, both landed about an inch to the side of the far end fairly consistently. Both spun off and hit somewhere mid-table on the left side (I was shooting at the first diamond on right side, left english.

The hit feel of the Pure-X is now not as different either. Apparently a lot of that feel was the tip. It's still different, the Pure-X is more of a solid hit, lower frequency vibration I bet. The OB Pro a bit more hollow sounding. Neither one bad or good, but different -- but not nearly as different as with different tips. I remain surprised how much different the two tips feel.

Finally -- I tried hitting a really hard, straight shot the length of the table to see how far it would roll, repeatedly a few dozen times each. I was surprised, despite the more solid feel for the Pure-X, I was consistently just shy of 4 lengths (3 rails then almost to the fourth) with the OB Pro, and usually right at 3.5 lengths with the Pure-X. Not a huge difference but consistently. Note I wasn't going for the hardest possible hit -- but the hardest hit I could keep within a couple inches of a straight line the whole way. So a solid-sounding hit doesn't seem to translate to more power. Could it also be me and poor stroke consistency -- sure, but it is me both times, and dozens of trials, alternating between them.

Anyway, this thread has been very informative, and I appreciate the feedback received. And in particular I appreciate Billiard Bill helping me get these to more of an apple-to-apple comparison. As well as always a lot of good info from him as he chats while he works. Highly recommend him for cues and cue repairs.

Now to play a bit more before deciding what my last (for the moment) cue will be.