Can't find a fargo rate on some of the more famous pool instructors

ShootingArts · Nov 8, 2019

babe magnet

jay helfert said:
"Little Joe" was a well known player who criss-crossed the country for many years, long before he ever showed up as an instructor. I would call him a strong shortstop speed and an even better gambler. He stood up there rock solid and fired those balls in. Plus he was a "long" player and could wear you down. One other thing, Joe always had a good looking girl with him. He knew how to get the money and the girls! :wink:

I only played him once on a bar table (I think in Colorado) and I just had to give him up after awhile. I only lost a couple of games but he was showing no signs of slowing down. We are life long friends, good ones! Just a really stand up guy.

Joe is still a babe magnet. I think he will be until he is at least a hunnert and three. If he would let that secret out ...

Always fun to talk to Joe, he is fun and smarter than the average bear when it comes to pool. JoeyA spent a good bit of time with JoeV when Joe was in New Orleans and either his better qualities rubbed off on Joey or Joey had them already.

Talked to Joe a long time today as usual. The only reason we didn't talk longer is that he had to go give a lesson. He is near St Paul now and still staying busy.

Hu

Snooker Theory · Nov 30, 2019

I just wanted to say something, I was thinking of this thread the other day, and though I had a little back and forth with Scott, I can't say I have ever heard of a single person that has gotten a lesson from him, or knows someone who has that felt like it wasn't time and money well spent.

So in that sense, I think I owe Scott an apology as I should have better clarified my remarks were not in any way directed at him.
I for one personally deeply appreciate Scott's contributions to pool and the time he spends answering questions on this site for free.

Scott Lee · Nov 30, 2019

Snooker Theory...Thanks very much! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Snooker Theory said:
I just wanted to say something, I was thinking of this thread the other day, and though I had a little back and forth with Scott, I can't say I have ever heard of a single person that has gotten a lesson from him, or knows someone who has that felt like it wasn't time and money well spent.

So in that sense, I think I owe Scott an apology as I should have better clarified my remarks were not in any way directed at him.
I for one personally deeply appreciate Scott's contributions to pool and the time he spends answering questions on this site for free.

logical · Dec 1, 2019

The ability to help someone reach their full potential is a skill very separate from having the potential to play at the highest level. The idea that o ly someone better than you at pool could possible help you improve just makes no intellectual sense...to me anyhow. But then again, at my level it would be difficult to find an instructor who didn't play better than me.

Do you think this guy could take Rocky in 10 rounds or less?

Sent from the future.

mfinkelstein3 · Dec 1, 2019

Fargo Rating of Instructors

I am going in to this “debate” with an open mind as an instructor without a Fargo Rating. I would like to hear the logic behind choosing an instructor based on Fargo Rating. Please enlighten me.

First, for the first 55 years I have been playing pool, they didn’t have Fargo ratings. Second, in my day it was always about showing just enough speed to win and never showing too much. When the game was over you stopped. It wasn’t about likes and bragging rights. Third, can someone please explain to me what a Fargo rating has to do with videoing a student, providing a simple repeatable process for a pool stroke, or explaining ball to ball physics for pool players. Fourth, I’m not in a league and only play tournament pool once in a while when convenient, or make games with people I want to play with.

Recognizing and correcting jumping up, jerking the stick back, opening the bridge, darting eyes, overhitting the cue ball, not playing angles, poor speed control, doing too much with the cue ball, saying bad things about yourself, outcome rather than process focus, and an inconsistent stroke process are not related to tournament finishes as near as I can tell. Please educate me.

I would much rather spend the weekend playing with my grandchildren than spending all day in a pool room developing my Fargo Rating, but that is just me.

boyersj · Dec 1, 2019

Oh the fun debates on instructors and their ability levels...
There is some truth to the questions about instructors and their skill level.

I believe there is more the question of their competency. I am guessing that any of the famous instructors already have a resume of competency otherwise they wouldn't be "famous".

Age affects us all differently, Patrick Swayze didn't get to turn 58. I use him as an example because he appeared to be in great physical shape but yet yielded to "father time". I have already had to begin wearing glasses in 2016 again after having Lasik eye surgery in 2001.

Anyhow father time is already affecting most of the famous instructors and Fargorate is a luxury that came very late or after their pool playing career. I would be willing that it would be very difficult for a legit Fargo 525 player to beat any instructor even if they had a couple days to prepare.

These "famous" instructors have been instrumental in where this game has gotten to today. During my lifetime; pool went from having a televised tour to no tour. The women went from being on TV to not being on TV. Professional players are pretty important to the game - but many of them have not helped the game much. Most of the "famous" instructors have in fact given a whole lot more than the professionals.

watchez · Dec 1, 2019

dardusm said:
https://www.ksdk.com/article/sports...judge/63-a92ad487-30b8-4018-bbee-684931628205

Interesting article that has some merit to the on going debate. I know teacher, he owns a pool room in St. Louis and is a good player. He became a hitting guru to help his son. I think you can learn from almost any instructor. Playing at a high level might give you some insights that other instructors don't have, but don't discount an instructor if they aren't a top player because you may still learn some things.

He also helped coach players like Andy Quinn in his early years of pool. Granted Andy was bestowed with a lot of god given talent and was self taught beyond that. But Andy was a 3 time jr national champ, BCAPL 8 ball champ when they had 1500 players in the event, was on a team that beat Appleton, Boyes, Hill, Mellon and one other English player in BCAPL team event, is a multi time (I think 4) Missouri state 8 and 9 ball champion. Oh and top 10 Fargo rate rating over the past 12 months in the US.

Mark Wilson was a too player in the late 90s,early 2000s. He has coached Jennette, Allison, Schmidt, Bergman and many others.

RakRunr · Dec 2, 2019

Snooker Theory said:
Well, if we are talking golf, again most teaching professionals have had to at one time had a minimum of a 3 handicap, so we aren't talking about folks who never played the game at a decent level, better than 95% of the people they coach.

The "minimum 3-handicap" reference is highly inaccurate. I was accepted into such a program with an 8 handicap. These PGA based degrees are primarily business focused, but the teaching portion of the program focused on the physical fundamentals of the swing, much like many PBIA instruction focuses on stroke mechanics.

There is a measurable standard of play for a PGA teaching professional known as the "Playing Ability Test" (PAT). Here is a quote from that page:

In order to pass the 36-hole PAT, you must achieve a 36-hole score within 15 shots of the course rating. For example, if the course rating is 72, the target score for the 36 holes would be 159 (72 x 2 = 144 + 15 = 159).

Simplified, it means you can pass the PAT while scoring 7-8 strokes over par, which is much higher than a "minimum 3 handicap". Golf handicapping is based on a highly complex algorithm, so without going into specifics, this level of play is closer to a 10 (that's -10) handicap. For context, the *average golfer in the US has a handicap over 16 (that's -16), while the average PGA touring professional is on the opposite side of par at +4-5, and the best players in the world have handicaps over +7. A "scratch" golfer [meaning a handicap of 0] still wouldn't stand a chance against a touring professional.

*[the data is limited to golfers who track their handicap - a huge number of recreational players do not, for a variety of reasons, and odds are pretty good their handicaps would be even higher]

KRJ · Dec 2, 2019

mfinkelstein3 said:
I am going in to this “debate” with an open mind as an instructor without a Fargo Rating. I would like to hear the logic behind choosing an instructor based on Fargo Rating. Please enlighten me.

First, for the first 55 years I have been playing pool, they didn’t have Fargo ratings. Second, in my day it was always about showing just enough speed to win and never showing too much. When the game was over you stopped. It wasn’t about likes and bragging rights. Third, can someone please explain to me what a Fargo rating has to do with videoing a student, providing a simple repeatable process for a pool stroke, or explaining ball to ball physics for pool players. Fourth, I’m not in a league and only play tournament pool once in a while when convenient, or make games with people I want to play with.

Recognizing and correcting jumping up, jerking the stick back, opening the bridge, darting eyes, overhitting the cue ball, not playing angles, poor speed control, doing too much with the cue ball, saying bad things about yourself, outcome rather than process focus, and an inconsistent stroke process are not related to tournament finishes as near as I can tell. Please educate me.

I would much rather spend the weekend playing with my grandchildren than spending all day in a pool room developing my Fargo Rating, but that is just me.

This makes too much sense Mark. Well said.

KRJ · Dec 2, 2019

ShortBusRuss said:
I know this was aimed more at Snooker Theory, but your post is firmly in line with what I believe should be the method by which folks should pick their coaches... "The proof is in the pudding." You had a proven history of coaching players to achieve what the coaching is meant to achieve.

Coaching a kid to swing well enough to get home runs is likely not an easy thing. And anyone watching your players knows that you are capable of doing so. So... There's not really any DEBATE that you know what you are doing.

At least up to a certain level. Some coaches will keep improving and coach better and better players, until they either don't feel like stepping up to the next level of coaching, or their expertise proves to be not as effective at a higher level.

Johann Ruslink has a proven history of turning champions into better players, by whatever means he does so. Stan Shuffet has a proven track record. Little Joe Villalpando has some of the best training material out on the market, and I wish he put out more. He also has a entire family of state level champions on his resume.

I STRONGLY debate the idea that some of the other mentioned coaches have the same resume. Just sayin'. If they can't put forth clear and obvious examples of significant improvement of their players, then it's all just marketing. The player's OPINIONS of that coach count for little, because the inner circle of Charles Manson and Ted Bundy thought highly of them, as well. And as we all know, players will TELL you they got much better, when they plainly haven't.

So, to summarize, I agree with the idea that a coaches' Fargorate doesn't really have a lot to do with demonstrating their ability to teach. But their STUDENT'S Fargorate.... Very much DOES.

Yup, I agree with ya. And those kids that went to play college ball and pro ball they got even better coaching then I could give them.

But, folks have to remember, 99% of the folks seeking out lessons are not looking for college scholarships or even thinking about turning pro. They are amateurs, looking to improve their skills to better compete in leagues and local amateur tourneys.

The APA 2's that can't hold a cue, to the dude who got bumped up to an APA 7 but fully admits he's getting killed by every APA 7 in the region. He doesn't know why, but would like to figure it out so he can at least hang with folks in the same skill level.

Plus, now he's spotting lower handicaps an extra game and suddenly his win percentage is going down and he's not helping his team like he use to. He doesn't want to go pro, but damn, he doesn't want his brains beat in every week, just every other week and he'd be happy

lol

atlas333 · Apr 24, 2020

CJ explains why

I watched CJ's video today and he explained why top pros don't explain how they aim saying adding too much conscious thinking at the table breaks the zone that they are trying to stay in.
I think this gives a possible reason why some Instructors are not as good players as their students.
Does anyone think this idea has merit?
Paul

ribdoner · Apr 24, 2020

atlas333 said:
i watched cj's video today and he explained why top pros don't explain how they aim saying adding too much conscious thinking at the table breaks the zone that they are trying to stay in.
I think this gives a possible reason why some instructors are not as good players as their students.
Does anyone think this idea has merit?
Paul

yes,,,,,,,,

genomachino · Apr 24, 2020

There are many teachers around that don't play that well.

newcuer said:
Just bringing this up. I understand the argument that the best players don't necessarily make the best instructors, but you would think some of the more famous instructors and video content providers would at least have some sort of fargo rate.

Unless they are purposely afraid to get one?? But to be fair, some areas of the country don't use fargo (dominated by the APA, like here in Chicago) so maybe that's why?

If that player played at a top level at one time you probably have a great teacher. If they still play at a top level you might just have a fantastic teacher. But most teachers around the country are not trying to make each and every player a champion and that would not be realistic. but they can help that player play at a level to the best of his ability. When you have a teacher that pumps out champions you really have a winner for sure. But for sure you are better off getting a lesson from someone that can play a little but be sure they teach a lot because teaching is just like being in stroke. You need to be doing it a lot to be on top of your game. Got a few guys in my area running around trying to steal. $40 per hour and sometimes I've heard they just quit the lesson if they made a mistake and are teaching someone that can actually play already. Bad rap for all good teachers out there. But just because a person is a good player does not mean he can teach.
:thumbup2:

genomachino · Apr 24, 2020

There are many teachers around that don't play that well.

atlas333 said:
I watched CJ's video today and he explained why top pros don't explain how they aim saying adding too much conscious thinking at the table breaks the zone that they are trying to stay in.
I think this gives a possible reason why some Instructors are not as good players as their students.
Does anyone think this idea has merit?
Paul

There is not enough teachers to go around that play as good or better than most players they are trying to teach. A teacher that plays at a lower level is not capable of teaching you things they can't possibly do. My thoughts are that the player really needs to be at least AA or Master level to even understand what they are doing for their own game and then be able to teach what they know. But just like players, even many of the lower level players think they know more than what they know because you don't know what you don't know until you see and learn what you don't know. So many of these teachers that are running around really think they can help but some are just trying to pick up some lunch money. Myself, I don't care who it is and at what level they are at I will show them things they never could have imagined before. It's that simple. Not the best teacher in the world but I know I have some of the best info that nobody else has.

iusedtoberich · Apr 24, 2020

Hi Geno speaking of instructors and Fargo, I just looked you up. There is a Sr and Jr Gene Albrecht. Do you have a son that plays? The Sr is a 685, the Jr is a 677.

sjm · Apr 24, 2020

Never knew there was a Fargo for teaching.

If so, guys like Mark Wilson, Jerry Briesath, Scott Lee and Johan Ruijsink will certainly have much higher Fargos than any of Josh Filler, JL Chang or SVB.

TATE · Apr 24, 2020

sjm said:
Never knew there was a Fargo for teaching.

If so, guys like Mark Wilson, Jerry Briesath, Scott Lee and Johan Ruijsink will certainly have much higher Fargos than any of Josh Filler, JL Chang or SVB.

Agreed. The limitation is the student anyway. Figuring out how to teach somebody to play better is a lot different than playing good yourself.

alstl · Apr 25, 2020

sjm said:
Never knew there was a Fargo for teaching.

If so, guys like Mark Wilson, Jerry Briesath, Scott Lee and Johan Ruijsink will certainly have much higher Fargos than any of Josh Filler, JL Chang or SVB.

With all due respect that's pure speculation. Filler, Chang and SVB make enough money playing the don't have to teach. Nobody knows how good they would be as a teacher but I suspect a decent player could learn a lot.

Example of a world champion who became an excellent author and instructor - Ray Martin.

goettlicher · Apr 25, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
The ability to teach a skill doesn't come with the skill.

Teaching is a separate skill unto itself.

pj
chgo

Welcome back.

randyg

goettlicher · Apr 25, 2020

There is a ranking system for Instructors.
It's called the PBIA.
Master
Advanced
Certified
Recognized

Anything else you need?

randyg

Can't find a fargo rate on some of the more famous pool instructors

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!

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