I am curious to see how people respond to this.

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
No need. I was responding to his specific post to start this thread. What ever thoughts he has outside this thread has no bearing on it.


Now with this new piece of info as to intentional fouls being cheating.....

The court of one that is Dead Money says an intentional foul may violate the "spirit" of the rules but not the actual written rules of the game. Intentional fouls are a strategic decision that could backfire on you. Perfectly legit. Done it myself. I have also regretted it a few times when an opponent pulled an amazing shot out of their ass or got lucky!:grin:



ShortbusRuss likes to make things up, he is basically a liar, he likes to try to put words in my mouth. I have him on ignore, but, when people quote him in their posts it shows up....

I did ask the original question and support all of my statements. I feel that when we agree to play a game we enter into a contract to not break the rules. Just because intentional fouling is "Accepted" through out many sports, it does not make it "within the rules" because the rules are being broken. My opinion is that it is Cheating. Sports evolve and add things to the rules, if they did this with intentional fouling I would have no problem with it. I was SOOO shocked to see that Phil Mickelson recently intentionally fouled in golf, a sad day for him and golf as a sport. Anyways, this has been just what I though it would be, a large number of people have no issue with intentionally fouling. I would only do it if I had absolutely no other option and would never use it as strategy. Yes, this means even if I would lose the game..... Would always rather lose with dignity rather than win with dishonor. I never said anyone else has to agree with me.

Trent from Toledo
 

blah blah

Shoebat
I read this entire thread as well as the one that preceded it.

Enough, already.

First issue: following the rules is not breaking the rules.

The rules provide a series of definitions, actions, and consequences.

The rules define fouls. They give the consequences of fouls.

Not following the stated consequences of a foul would be breaking the rules.

For example, if someone double hit a cue ball, or accidentally tapped the cueball past the break line, or left themselves an easy shot on the money ball, and if in each of these situations you: declined to punish the foul, or allowed the opponent another attempt at a legal break, or declined to insist your opponent make the easy money ball for the win- you are, strictly speaking, breaking the rules.

On the other hand, if there is absolutely no way to make contact with an object ball, rather than put yourself in a position of certain loss, you May intentionally accept the consequences of a foul, and possibly still get another shot in the game. This is not breaking the rule, because you are following the definition of a foul, and accepting the stated consequences in the rule. Just as you have already been told, several times before here.

Second issue: pool does not attempt to identify or punish intent

The rules rarely, if ever, attempt to define intent, or to provide a consequence for something intentional as opposed to an event based on honest error or lack of skill. Intent is a non-issue, and you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why people do certain things. You don't even need to know Why- you have the actions and the consequences laid out in the rules.

Even on the issue of "sportsmanship," the rules never attempt to delve into the mind of the sportsman and identify whether he is deliberately trying to shark his opponent or if he is just twitchy, loud, or naturally incontinent. Here, in the case of "intentional" fouls, the rules do not ask whether an honest attempt was made to make a legal shot. Otherwise, people would be encouraged to lie, call ridiculously impossible shots, and to argue.

Conclusion
You are putting meanings into the rules that are just not there.

Clearly it makes you feel smug, superior, and more "honorable" than 99% of the pool playing world. Instead, however, it is showing your naive misunderstanding of the strict rules and strategies in the game. It is as though you are playing chess but suddenly insisting that All pieces may only proceed forward until they reach the end of the board, and that players who move pieces in retreat are dishonorable cheaters.

By changing the rules with your added meanings, you are refusing to see the strategy and beauty that is already possible. Your arguments are also Very similar to those new bar players who insist that playing safe instead of wildly attempting to pocket an impossible ball is "chicken" or "dirty."

I gently and kindly suggest that you start a new account and abandon this one, that you learn to listen respectfully to those who have played intense and competitive pool for decades and who understand the art and the strategies of the games more deeply than you do, and that you remove your business card from this thread. I would Never play even a friendly game with someone who made up new meanings to the rules, who further believed his personal, imaginary meanings were a demonstration of someone's character, and I would Never seek the billiard related services of one who clearly did not understand the games on which he is trying to build a business.
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
I read this entire thread as well as the one that preceded it.

Enough, already.

Clearly it makes you feel smug, superior, and more "honorable" than 99% of the pool playing world. Instead, however, it is showing your naive misunderstanding of the strict rules and strategies in the game. It is as though you are playing chess but suddenly insisting that All pieces may only proceed forward until they reach the end of the board, and that players who move pieces in retreat are dishonorable cheaters.

Ooooh, careful, now.. He might put you on ignore...

Your arguments are also Very similar to those new bar players who insist that playing safe instead of wildly attempting to pocket an impossible ball is "chicken" or "dirty."

I.e., "barbanger".... After all, I should KNOW, as I am a "C" player...


Short Bus Russ
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ShortbusRuss likes to make things up, he is basically a liar, he likes to try to put words in my mouth. I have him on ignore, but, when people quote him in their posts it shows up....

I did ask the original question and support all of my statements. I feel that when we agree to play a game we enter into a contract to not break the rules. Just because intentional fouling is "Accepted" through out many sports, it does not make it "within the rules" because the rules are being broken. My opinion is that it is Cheating. Sports evolve and add things to the rules, if they did this with intentional fouling I would have no problem with it. I was SOOO shocked to see that Phil Mickelson recently intentionally fouled in golf, a sad day for him and golf as a sport. Anyways, this has been just what I though it would be, a large number of people have no issue with intentionally fouling. I would only do it if I had absolutely no other option and would never use it as strategy. Yes, this means even if I would lose the game..... Would always rather lose with dignity rather than win with dishonor. I never said anyone else has to agree with me.

Trent from Toledo

I would suggest you play in the church league or some place similar.

Obviously, you have never played in any "real" tournament or gambling environment.

Intentional fouls are "part of the game". They are "strategy" shots, just like safety shots.

If you want to get so uppity about "honor" and stuff, make it "call every shot" with no safes allowed. You miss, the other player shoots with BIH or passes back to you.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
I read this entire thread as well as the one that preceded it.

Enough, already.

First issue: following the rules is not breaking the rules.

The rules provide a series of definitions, actions, and consequences.

The rules define fouls. They give the consequences of fouls.

Not following the stated consequences of a foul would be breaking the rules.

For example, if someone double hit a cue ball, or accidentally tapped the cueball past the break line, or left themselves an easy shot on the money ball, and if in each of these situations you: declined to punish the foul, or allowed the opponent another attempt at a legal break, or declined to insist your opponent make the easy money ball for the win- you are, strictly speaking, breaking the rules.

On the other hand, if there is absolutely no way to make contact with an object ball, rather than put yourself in a position of certain loss, you May intentionally accept the consequences of a foul, and possibly still get another shot in the game. This is not breaking the rule, because you are following the definition of a foul, and accepting the stated consequences in the rule. Just as you have already been told, several times before here.

Second issue: pool does not attempt to identify or punish intent

The rules rarely, if ever, attempt to define intent, or to provide a consequence for something intentional as opposed to an event based on honest error or lack of skill. Intent is a non-issue, and you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why people do certain things. You don't even need to know Why- you have the actions and the consequences laid out in the rules.

Even on the issue of "sportsmanship," the rules never attempt to delve into the mind of the sportsman and identify whether he is deliberately trying to shark his opponent or if he is just twitchy, loud, or naturally incontinent. Here, in the case of "intentional" fouls, the rules do not ask whether an honest attempt was made to make a legal shot. Otherwise, people would be encouraged to lie, call ridiculously impossible shots, and to argue.

Conclusion
You are putting meanings into the rules that are just not there.

Clearly it makes you feel smug, superior, and more "honorable" than 99% of the pool playing world. Instead, however, it is showing your naive misunderstanding of the strict rules and strategies in the game. It is as though you are playing chess but suddenly insisting that All pieces may only proceed forward until they reach the end of the board, and that players who move pieces in retreat are dishonorable cheaters.

By changing the rules with your added meanings, you are refusing to see the strategy and beauty that is already possible. Your arguments are also Very similar to those new bar players who insist that playing safe instead of wildly attempting to pocket an impossible ball is "chicken" or "dirty."

I gently and kindly suggest that you start a new account and abandon this one, that you learn to listen respectfully to those who have played intense and competitive pool for decades and who understand the art and the strategies of the games more deeply than you do, and that you remove your business card from this thread. I would Never play even a friendly game with someone who made up new meanings to the rules, who further believed his personal, imaginary meanings were a demonstration of someone's character, and I would Never seek the billiard related services of one who clearly did not understand the games on which he is trying to build a business.



Break a rule = Foul and a consequence will follow
Break a rule intentionally = Cheating.

Just because there is a consequence does not negate the fact a rule has been broken. If it is done intentionally it is cheating in my opinion. <<--- see that part, its my OPINION. Yours and others are obviously opinions too, we disagree and that is ok.

I know people play this way, that does not mean I have to agree with it or participate in the practice. I also know that this post is not going to change many peoples mind about the topic.

I happen to agree with this theory:

Examined Sport: Warren Fraleigh: “Why the Good Foul is Not Good"

https://youtu.be/qDzSOV620xc

If someone would not want to do business with me because I want to play an honest game of pool, then so be it. I am always a busy guy. :) In fact, I speak with almost all of my clients about this exact topic and I get some interesting responses from the very question this post is about.

I had a solid idea of how people would react, although, I am very surprised with the number of people who tried so very hard to convince me that my opinion about the topic is wrong. Opinions are not facts as most of us know. I am allowed my opinion just like everyone else is. I do apologize if I came across as if my opinion were a fact.

I love pool and love that I am lucky enough to make a living working on the best pool tables money can buy. I appreciate all those who were civil and took the time to write out very detailed explanations of their perspective on the topic. I gave positive rep to those who took the time to explain their perspective. I think nothing more can come of this and I cannot post anymore on this topic. Agreeing to disagree may be difficult, but, it is necessary in life. Thanks

Trent from Toledo
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Trent...no matter how embroiled you get in this subject, I’m not going to forget that you’re
going to be a poppa soon.....
...so maybe it’s time to construct a set of rules for a new game....

43A24A73-AAAD-41AF-BD62-4380E0EC8D41.jpeg
 

Alex Kanapilly

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Break a rule = Foul and a consequence will follow
Break a rule intentionally = Cheating.

Just because there is a consequence does not negate the fact a rule has been broken. If it is done intentionally it is cheating in my opinion. <<--- see that part, its my OPINION. Yours and others are obviously opinions too, we disagree and that is ok.

I know people play this way, that does not mean I have to agree with it or participate in the practice. I also know that this post is not going to change many peoples mind about the topic.

I happen to agree with this theory:

Examined Sport: Warren Fraleigh: “Why the Good Foul is Not Good"

https://youtu.be/qDzSOV620xc

If someone would not want to do business with me because I want to play an honest game of pool, then so be it. I am always a busy guy. :) In fact, I speak with almost all of my clients about this exact topic and I get some interesting responses from the very question this post is about.

I had a solid idea of how people would react, although, I am very surprised with the number of people who tried so very hard to convince me that my opinion about the topic is wrong. Opinions are not facts as most of us know. I am allowed my opinion just like everyone else is. I do apologize if I came across as if my opinion were a fact.

I love pool and love that I am lucky enough to make a living working on the best pool tables money can buy. I appreciate all those who were civil and took the time to write out very detailed explanations of their perspective on the topic. I gave positive rep to those who took the time to explain their perspective. I think nothing more can come of this and I cannot post anymore on this topic. Agreeing to disagree may be difficult, but, it is necessary in life. Thanks

Trent from Toledo

Fair enough.

So, knowing how you feel about this and also knowing how the game is played in every single competitive league/tournament that I know of, how do you react when someone takes an intentional foul against you in a tournament? Do you just unscrew and quit? I genuinely would like to know.

Also, has this opinion of yours prevented you from entering competitive events because you disagree with the tactic of intentional fouls, etc.?

I guess I'm making the assumption that you do play competitively at least occasionally. Do you only play pool with people that share your opinion on this?
 

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Break a rule = Foul and a consequence will follow
Break a rule intentionally = Cheating.

Just because there is a consequence does not negate the fact a rule has been broken. If it is done intentionally it is cheating in my opinion.
Again, we're dealing with semantics on what constitutes a "rule" or a "foul".

Couldn't it be regarded as a rule that you must legally pocket a ball during your turn at the table? If you don't pocket a ball, then you "break the rule" and the consequence is that you lose your turn at the table.

So given that legally pocketing a ball is the rule, would it be "cheating" to intentionally play a safe? Many bar bangers think safeties are cheating. Are their opinions valid?
 

heater451

Registered
No, common intentional fouls are within the rules, not breaking them. It is unfortunate that there is a great deal of confusion here about this. I think that confusion was due to the way the original question was posed and the repeated obfuscations following.

Fouling your opponent at basketball to force him to the line is within the rules of basketball, not breaking the rules. Breaking his arm to cut down on his free-throw percentages is probably breaking the rules of basketball.


This. And while I wholeheartedly agree, even this answer assumes that "breaking the rules" equates with "intentional foul". We don't really know, since Trent has not specified a particular rule and/or situation.

To give my personal answer, I would believe that "breaking the rules" *approaches* cheating, but would have to specifically know which rule(s) is being "broken", as it might not be....Back to "intentional foul", as Bob said, a foul is covered by the rules (assuming standard rule sets, like APA, BCA, TAP, etc.). To that I would add, "intentional" vs. "unintentional" does not matter--unless, for some oddball reason, there was a separate rule/penalty, and even then, in some cases I would imagine that discerning between the two would be impossible.

To make a long post longer, consider having to kick for a good hit. The object ball is missed, but the cue ball continues on to knock another ball into a position that effectively kills a ball-in-hand run. Is it possible to know, if the "bad" kick was intentional or not--even if the original kick appeared easily accomplished, and the shooter was a professional?

*edit*
My bad, I read several responses, and decided to answer before I got to the end. I 2nd what jsp said about, "...semantics on what constitutes a "rule" or a "foul".
 
Last edited:

Badbeat13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I read this entire thread as well as the one that preceded it.

Enough, already.

First issue: following the rules is not breaking the rules.

The rules provide a series of definitions, actions, and consequences.

The rules define fouls. They give the consequences of fouls.

Not following the stated consequences of a foul would be breaking the rules.

For example, if someone double hit a cue ball, or accidentally tapped the cueball past the break line, or left themselves an easy shot on the money ball, and if in each of these situations you: declined to punish the foul, or allowed the opponent another attempt at a legal break, or declined to insist your opponent make the easy money ball for the win- you are, strictly speaking, breaking the rules.

On the other hand, if there is absolutely no way to make contact with an object ball, rather than put yourself in a position of certain loss, you May intentionally accept the consequences of a foul, and possibly still get another shot in the game. This is not breaking the rule, because you are following the definition of a foul, and accepting the stated consequences in the rule. Just as you have already been told, several times before here.

Second issue: pool does not attempt to identify or punish intent

The rules rarely, if ever, attempt to define intent, or to provide a consequence for something intentional as opposed to an event based on honest error or lack of skill. Intent is a non-issue, and you will drive yourself crazy trying to figure out why people do certain things. You don't even need to know Why- you have the actions and the consequences laid out in the rules.

Even on the issue of "sportsmanship," the rules never attempt to delve into the mind of the sportsman and identify whether he is deliberately trying to shark his opponent or if he is just twitchy, loud, or naturally incontinent. Here, in the case of "intentional" fouls, the rules do not ask whether an honest attempt was made to make a legal shot. Otherwise, people would be encouraged to lie, call ridiculously impossible shots, and to argue.

Conclusion
You are putting meanings into the rules that are just not there.

Clearly it makes you feel smug, superior, and more "honorable" than 99% of the pool playing world. Instead, however, it is showing your naive misunderstanding of the strict rules and strategies in the game. It is as though you are playing chess but suddenly insisting that All pieces may only proceed forward until they reach the end of the board, and that players who move pieces in retreat are dishonorable cheaters.

By changing the rules with your added meanings, you are refusing to see the strategy and beauty that is already possible. Your arguments are also Very similar to those new bar players who insist that playing safe instead of wildly attempting to pocket an impossible ball is "chicken" or "dirty."

I gently and kindly suggest that you start a new account and abandon this one, that you learn to listen respectfully to those who have played intense and competitive pool for decades and who understand the art and the strategies of the games more deeply than you do, and that you remove your business card from this thread. I would Never play even a friendly game with someone who made up new meanings to the rules, who further believed his personal, imaginary meanings were a demonstration of someone's character, and I would Never seek the billiard related services of one who clearly did not understand the games on which he is trying to build a business.

Should be in the running for post of the year.
 
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