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Black-Balled
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09-03-2014, 12:12 PM

Stop thinking lik that. Virtually all balls can be made.

Sometimes running out is like drunk driving, sometimes it is like making toast.
  
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ronscuba
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09-03-2014, 12:47 PM

Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?
  
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09-03-2014, 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
THIS is the way it IS!

I think the ONLY reason you should make a ball when you CAN'T get position to make the next ball is when you can play a BETTER safe after making the ball.
  
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09-03-2014, 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronscuba View Post
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?
Definitely shot-making first. Ray Martin taught me that when he was my coach. I can still hear him preaching to me how the great players were all great shot-makers before they became great position players.
  
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two sides of a coin
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two sides of a coin - 09-03-2014, 01:03 PM

It should be the two sides of the same coin. When you plan your shot correctly it is impossible to miss half of it. You either make the ball and get shape or you miss both. I hate missing half the shot because that means I really screwed up, I had missed before I ever put my bridge hand down.

Hu
  
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you can improve and develop as a position player
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Thumbs up you can improve and develop as a position player - 09-03-2014, 01:38 PM

If a player somehow becomes a great position player first they will not develop as a pure shot-maker. However, you can improve and develop as a position player after becoming an accurate shot-maker.

As far as competition is concerned, it can be intimidating to face a pure shot-maker.....against a position specialist you usually just have to cut down on mistakes.

The true challenge is maintaining both skills at a high level, this requires some 14.1 (straight pool) practice. imho


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09-03-2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVE_M View Post
That's a bad mentality. That's APA 9-ball mentality.

I see it two ways:

Can you make the ball? No.
Well then you can't get shape.

Can you make the ball? Yes.
Can you get shape? No.
Should you play safe? Yes.

If you can make the ball and get shape, then there's no need for discussion.
Debatable. Sometimes making the shot to leave yourself a tough next shot is fine, especially if the next shot has easier options for a safe than the current.
  
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MapleMan
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09-03-2014, 01:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronscuba View Post
Here is a spin on the question.

If you could start out being very strong with one and leave the other to practice and grow, would you rather start out a strong shotmaker or position player ?
It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.
  
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09-03-2014, 01:54 PM

It sounds like you need an Aiming System!

That way you will make EVERY shot. You'll never have any doubt about pocketing a ball. It will happen automatically.

Send me $80 (cash only) and you could win the US Open and maybe get paid.



Seriously, it sounds like you're on the right track. I'm just a C player who gets darn near perfect shape on every shot...except I rattle the OB in the jaws for my opponent to tap in.


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Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers. --- Voltaire
  
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09-03-2014, 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post

The true challenge is maintaining both skills at a high level, this requires some 14.1 (straight pool) practice. imho
Thank you, great statement. You're officially off the hook for plagiarizing my TOI. ( I never figured I'd get that 4 bucks anyhow.)


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09-03-2014, 02:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleMan View Post
It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.
Shot making is my strength.

CB directional control is getting better, but controlling the CB direction and speed together is currently my biggest flaw.

I think I need to work on recognizing how to come into the position zone parallel instead of crossing it. This way speed has more room for error.
  
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09-03-2014, 02:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleMan View Post
It is still taking me forever to get that cue ball on a string

I can make long thin cut shots but it is not helpful when I leave myself a shot that is hopeless.

To answer the question I would value position. As long as you can make elementary shots cue ball control is key. Then you don't leave yourself difficult shots

Good control probably means good safes so tough shots left by opponents can turn into safeties.
Shot making is my strength.

CB directional control is getting better, but controlling the CB direction and speed together is currently my biggest flaw.

I think I need to work on recognizing how to come into the position zone parallel instead of crossing it or enter through the wide end of the position zone. This way speed has more room for error.
  
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MapleMan
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09-03-2014, 02:03 PM

BB has it right by calling running out "drunk driving"

I haven't been making it home from the bar lately
  
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09-03-2014, 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by liakos View Post
Hope all is well with everyone

So last night I played a friend a fairly cheap set race to 15. I always considered him a verygood shotmaker, but his rock is sometimes a little suspect. I never considered myself a shotmaker, more of a position player! So we played the set on a fairly tight table and I won the set 15-10! All is well and it was late so we pretty much left! Outside a couple of friends were there making small talk and I decided to hang for a bit! One of them I consider a phenominal player and I'm sure almost everyone here has heard of him. Anyway, we were talking about the match and I was telling him I wish I could make balls like my opponent could, and he says to me you shouldn't think like that, you shoot as good if not better! I said I move better, but I don't shoot better! He asked me who won the match? I said I did! He said youre the better player!

So here is my question, because I missed less, am I the better shotmaker? And what does everyone look at overall in a player? Cue ball control or shotmaking?

Admittingly I'm not too crazy about shotmaking, I would rather have control

The answer is simple: Good players make great shots. Great players don't.
  
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Not either or,... but which ?
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Not either or,... but which ? - 09-03-2014, 02:36 PM

I will say they are BOTH important.
What I think matters is whoever is the best at what they do will likely be the winner be it the shot-maker ,or the position player.

I seen position players fold like a bad poker hand when they don't get shape.

I also think that when you get to the table, you will be jammed, shooting off the rail , or out of a pocket so you need some level of shot-making to stay on the table.

I'll give shot-making a slight edge.


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The memories of a man in his old-age, are the deeds of a man in his prime. ~~~ Pink Floyd.
  
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