fixed Vision Center issue -- I use both eyes INDEPENDENTLY !

Cadillac J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Background

When I was younger and played, I was Right-eye dominant and right-handed (not related, but was only 5' 5" - 5' 8" max in my mid-teens when I used to play most...back picking up the game three years ago I am 6' 3").

I started to need glasses in the 4th grade, then went to contacts when I was in high school. My contact scripts were -7.5 in each eye at the time when I started thinking about Lasik...talked to at least ten people I know who all "swear it was the best thing they ever did", so I took the plunge in June-2008 going to one of the best docs in Detroit area.

Well let's just say my results were a bit sketchy. Although my vision cleared up to the point where I didn't need to use glasses, everything was blurry/fuzzy, especially in my right eye. Then I notice driving at night is very scary because I get halos and starbursts from every oncoming light that blinds the road in front of me--eyes degraded and it was not just a night-time thing anymore--ANY area where there is dark/shade with natural or artificial lights, I cannot see details like peoples' faces to recognize them. Basically, if I went in a pool hall or restaurant with a darker ambience, I can never find who I'm meeting up without them waving usually or me squinting like a mo fo. Oh, and I have astigmatism and have eye floaties at 37...can't wait to see what it will be like at 50 :frown:


How this applies to my Vision Center and using both eyes at different times

When doing tests to find my VC, it seems I was now Left-eye dominant...or at least, that is what I thought. Was playing around more with this yesterday and realized that my eye-dominance could change back from Left to Right with minor shift/angle of the head...maybe like 1-2 degrees--just whatever eye is "most forward" picks up that perception and locks on.


IMPORTANT PART


So here is what I started to do yesterday with excellent results:

1) bring Left eye into dominance and line up my shot standing and then drop in
2) quickly will jet my eyes completely to the left as far as I can to quickly 'reset'
3) shift eyes back to shot,but now Right eye dominance/viewpoint takes over where I am sighted down cue
4) shoot

Just thought I'd throw this out there in case anyone else had the same issue with both eyes taking dominance...maybe it will help.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Background

When I was younger and played, I was Right-eye dominant and right-handed (not related, but was only 5' 5" - 5' 8" max in my mid-teens when I used to play most...back picking up the game three years ago I am 6' 3").

I started to need glasses in the 4th grade, then went to contacts when I was in high school. My contact scripts were -7.5 in each eye at the time when I started thinking about Lasik...talked to at least ten people I know who all "swear it was the best thing they ever did", so I took the plunge in June-2008 going to one of the best docs in Detroit area.

Well let's just say my results were a bit sketchy. Although my vision cleared up to the point where I didn't need to use glasses, everything was blurry/fuzzy, especially in my right eye. Then I notice driving at night is very scary because I get halos and starbursts from every oncoming light that blinds the road in front of me--eyes degraded and it was not just a night-time thing anymore--ANY area where there is dark/shade with natural or artificial lights, I cannot see details like peoples' faces to recognize them. Basically, if I went in a pool hall or restaurant with a darker ambience, I can never find who I'm meeting up without them waving usually or me squinting like a mo fo. Oh, and I have astigmatism and have eye floaties at 37...can't wait to see what it will be like at 50 :frown:


How this applies to my Vision Center and using both eyes at different times

When doing tests to find my VC, it seems I was now Left-eye dominant...or at least, that is what I thought. Was playing around more with this yesterday and realized that my eye-dominance could change back from Left to Right with minor shift/angle of the head...maybe like 1-2 degrees--just whatever eye is "most forward" picks up that perception and locks on.


IMPORTANT PART


So here is what I started to do yesterday with excellent results:

1) bring Left eye into dominance and line up my shot standing and then drop in
2) quickly will jet my eyes completely to the left as far as I can to quickly 'reset'
3) shift eyes back to shot,but now Right eye dominance/viewpoint takes over where I am sighted down cue
4) shoot

Just thought I'd throw this out there in case anyone else had the same issue with both eyes taking dominance...maybe it will help.
Interesting. Question: how do you "bring eye into dominance"? I thought you were one or the other. Your left/right procedure sounds kinda weird to be honest. Not knocking it but it just sounds strange.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You really cant re wire your eye dominance but you can force yourself to focus on what one or the other eye is telling you
Jmho
 

Cadillac J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know it is weird and would be 'frowned upon' here...but I had to share it. Granted, this was only one session that I've tried, but I was so much more consistent.

When I do the "hold your thumb up on outstretched arm and make circle with other hand and look through it....then close each eye to find your dominant eye", right?

Well I was like WTF when all of a sudden my right-eye was the one that was 'leading' although I'm using both eyes to see. Then I would try again and it sometimes would jump back to my left eye being the one that was dominant (as far as that test goes).

If I'm looking dead straight with my head/eyes and barely move my nose by 1-2mm in either direction, that is enough to change my eye dominance perspective to go back and forth--you can barely see I'm even moving.

Regardless of what anyone says, it works for me...I'll keep y'all posted if I find any new insights while getting more experience.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know it is weird and would be 'frowned upon' here...but I had to share it. Granted, this was only one session that I've tried, but I was so much more consistent.

When I do the "hold your thumb up on outstretched arm and make circle with other hand and look through it....then close each eye to find your dominant eye", right?

Well I was like WTF when all of a sudden my right-eye was the one that was 'leading' although I'm using both eyes to see. Then I would try again and it sometimes would jump back to my left eye being the one that was dominant (as far as that test goes).

If I'm looking dead straight with my head/eyes and barely move my nose by 1-2mm in either direction, that is enough to change my eye dominance perspective to go back and forth--you can barely see I'm even moving.

Regardless of what anyone says, it works for me...I'll keep y'all posted if I find any new insights while getting more experience.
I didn't knock it or frown it just questioned it. Having quasi two-eye dominance is rare i would imagine. Hey, if the balls go in, stay with it.
 

gogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mark Shelby the snooker player does something very similar as he starts to warmup stroke, swaying his head ever so slightly back and forth ( more of a lateral shift really) before he gets still and fires...
I have always thought to myself that he was checking the line up with both eyes.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cadillac J...I think you've just figured out what we've been teaching for many years...that dominant eye doesn't matter at all! What matters is where you position the cue under your head, where you perceive a straight line. That may or may not be under your dominant or submissive eye...or anywhere in between. Of course you have to have a straight stroke to deliver the cue into the straight line that you perceive! Whatever it was, I'm glad you found it, and it's working for you. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

Background

When I was younger and played, I was Right-eye dominant and right-handed (not related, but was only 5' 5" - 5' 8" max in my mid-teens when I used to play most...back picking up the game three years ago I am 6' 3").

I started to need glasses in the 4th grade, then went to contacts when I was in high school. My contact scripts were -7.5 in each eye at the time when I started thinking about Lasik...talked to at least ten people I know who all "swear it was the best thing they ever did", so I took the plunge in June-2008 going to one of the best docs in Detroit area.

Well let's just say my results were a bit sketchy. Although my vision cleared up to the point where I didn't need to use glasses, everything was blurry/fuzzy, especially in my right eye. Then I notice driving at night is very scary because I get halos and starbursts from every oncoming light that blinds the road in front of me--eyes degraded and it was not just a night-time thing anymore--ANY area where there is dark/shade with natural or artificial lights, I cannot see details like peoples' faces to recognize them. Basically, if I went in a pool hall or restaurant with a darker ambience, I can never find who I'm meeting up without them waving usually or me squinting like a mo fo. Oh, and I have astigmatism and have eye floaties at 37...can't wait to see what it will be like at 50 :frown:


How this applies to my Vision Center and using both eyes at different times

When doing tests to find my VC, it seems I was now Left-eye dominant...or at least, that is what I thought. Was playing around more with this yesterday and realized that my eye-dominance could change back from Left to Right with minor shift/angle of the head...maybe like 1-2 degrees--just whatever eye is "most forward" picks up that perception and locks on.


IMPORTANT PART


So here is what I started to do yesterday with excellent results:

1) bring Left eye into dominance and line up my shot standing and then drop in
2) quickly will jet my eyes completely to the left as far as I can to quickly 'reset'
3) shift eyes back to shot,but now Right eye dominance/viewpoint takes over where I am sighted down cue
4) shoot

Just thought I'd throw this out there in case anyone else had the same issue with both eyes taking dominance...maybe it will help.
 

larry732

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I thought I was the only one with this problem. I had cataract surgery on both eyes an end result was, I became left eye dominant. My whole life I was right eye dominant. . I shoot with either eye and to perfect that, when using my right eye I hold the cue close to my body and when using my left eye I hold the cue about four inches away from my body which brings my left eye directly over the cue in shooting position. I know it sounds crazy, but try it.
 

PRED

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I use both eyes INDEPENDENTLY


#metoo
 

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BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently went through something similar.

Left eye dominant according to all the tests I've taken.

Playing with left eye over the cue, but the cue never looks straight. For years I've been plagued with putting unwanted right hand spin on the ball. Found out it's because I stand at a 45 degree angle while standing and as I get into my stance, I bring the cue over a little too far. It was never noticeable until I really slowed down the movement of getting into my stance.

The solution...

Standing square to the shot with my right foot directly facing down shot line. Now when I get into my stance, it's my right (non-dominant) eye that is over the cue. The cue actually looks straight. Stroke and stance are much more comfortable.

What I've learned from this is that the dominant eye and vision center are two completely different, and vision center is so much more important.
 

Scratch85

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think I have said this here before, but my dominant eye doesn't always behave dominantly. I haven’t had surgeries but have really noticed it over the last 20 or so years. I become more aware of it each year. I first noticed it shooting long guns, 30+ years ago. I originally thought my dominant eye became lazy but that is not what was happening. It has something to do with the focal distance. My optometrist doesn’t get why I care but I assure you it is somewhat maddening to deal with. I am a chin dragger when I shoot pool. I make an adjustment to my chin position depending on which eye is behaving dominantly, when standing behind the shot during alignment. I know it sounds crazy but my dominant eye doesn't always behave dominantly and I am aware of when it happens. So, to those of you who experience the same, you’re not alone.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
... the dominant eye and vision center are two completely different, and vision center is so much more important.
Proper vision-center alignment is the most important fundamentals of pool, IMO. For those interested, videos, articles, and other info dealing with this topic can be found here:

vision center resource page

Regards,
Dave
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are different definitions for eye dominance. The one I'm referring to is the physically dominant eye that has more nerves that go straight back to the brain as opposed to the recessive eye that has more nerves that criss cross to the brain. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, therefore the dominant eye transmits the information it sees to the brain first.

That doesn't mean that the dominant eye is the better visual eye. It just means that it captures the information first.

Regardless of where you place your cue stick, it will always tend to drift towards your dominant eye because it grabs the information first. If you try to force it away, you will get tired sooner than normal during a match and there will come a time when you don't even realize it's drifted back.Then you're in trouble because you haven't adapted your aim.

Unless you have a serious pathology which prevents you from seeing with your dominant eye, you should consider not fighting it, but instead adapting to it and making whatever aiming adjustments you need to make. It's not as drastic as you may think and most players do it naturally. I've been doing it for years and have had no problem making necessary aiming adjustments. I wouldn't even call it an aiming adjustment. It's more like knowing my tendencies on certain shots. And I have a severely dominant eye.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Regardless of where you place your cue stick, it will always tend to drift towards your dominant eye because it grabs the information first. If you try to force it away, you will get tired sooner than normal during a match and there will come a time when you don't even realize it's drifted back.Then you're in trouble because you haven't adapted your aim.
If one allows their visual alignment to shift, this is obviously a problem. The key is to not let this happen. The best way to prevent this is to have a low head position, ideally with the chin touching or just above the cue (like pretty much every snooker player, and like most top modern-era pool players). Then it is easy to guarantee your head is always in the right place.

Unless you have a serious pathology which prevents you from seeing with your dominant eye, you should consider not fighting it, but instead adapting to it and making whatever aiming adjustments you need to make. It's not as drastic as you may think and most players do it naturally. I've been doing it for years and have had no problem making necessary aiming adjustments. I wouldn't even call it an aiming adjustment. It's more like knowing my tendencies on certain shots. And I have a severely dominant eye.
I think it is best to totally ignore what eye might be dominant or not (e.g., based on the standard eye-dominance tests). What is important in pool is seeing shots right by using the same (and best) visual alignment on every shot. If one does, one will not need to make "adjustment" decisions or judgments ... one can instead trust the shot picture and natural aim.

I am right-eye dominant, and I used to position my cue closer to my right eye, as you suggest might be natural. This caused me to see every shot wrong, and I missed often ... often assuming my stroke was the problem. After I found that my vision center position is with my cue centered between my eyes, and after I lowered my stance to accurately and consistently place my head in my vision-center position, my play immediately got better, more consistent, and more fun.

Regards,
Dave
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If one allows their visual alignment to shift, this is obviously a problem. The key is to not let this happen. The best way to prevent this is to have a low head position, ideally with the chin touching or just above the cue (like pretty much every snooker player, and like most top modern-era pool players). Then it is easy to guarantee your head is always in the right place.

I think it is best to totally ignore what eye might be dominant or not (e.g., based on the standard eye-dominance tests). What is important in pool is seeing shots right by using the same (and best) visual alignment on every shot. If one does, one will not need to make "adjustment" decisions or judgments ... one can instead trust the shot picture and natural aim.

I am right-eye dominant, and I used to position my cue closer to my right eye, as you suggest might be natural. This caused me to see every shot wrong, and I missed often ... often assuming my stroke was the problem. After I found that my vision center position is with my cue centered between my eyes, and after I lowered my stance to accurately and consistently place my head in my vision-center position, my play immediately got better, more consistent, and more fun.

Regards,
Dave

That's too bad that you weren't able to make the adjustments with the cue under your dominant eye. You do wear glasses, and I don't know what your visual situation is. Perhaps it's not something you can do. But it is something many other players can do.

When you fight your anatomy, you will wear yourself out sooner. Also, consciously placing your head to make sure your cue isn't drifting under your dominant eye is contrary to playing in the zone. Any time you have to stop and remind yourself of something, you are not playing in the zone.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
If one allows their visual alignment to shift, this is obviously a problem. The key is to not let this happen. The best way to prevent this is to have a low head position, ideally with the chin touching or just above the cue (like pretty much every snooker player, and like most top modern-era pool players). Then it is easy to guarantee your head is always in the right place.

I think it is best to totally ignore what eye might be dominant or not (e.g., based on the standard eye-dominance tests). What is important in pool is seeing shots right by using the same (and best) visual alignment on every shot. If one does, one will not need to make "adjustment" decisions or judgments ... one can instead trust the shot picture and natural aim.

I am right-eye dominant, and I used to position my cue closer to my right eye, as you suggest might be natural. This caused me to see every shot wrong, and I missed often ... often assuming my stroke was the problem. After I found that my vision center position is with my cue centered between my eyes, and after I lowered my stance to accurately and consistently place my head in my vision-center position, my play immediately got better, more consistent, and more fun.
That's too bad that you weren't able to make the adjustments with the cue under your dominant eye.
I actually never had my cue under my dominant eye. It was between my nose and dominant eye. Honestly, I am glad I didn't try to learn to adjust my aim to compensate for this non-ideal alignment. I prefer that my head be in the right place so my eyes and brain see every shot properly. Then no adjustments are required. When I first changed to my new head position, it wasn't comfortable, but I later made changes to my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place accurately and consistently with comfort. For those interested, I describe this in the later part of the following video:

NV J.21 – How to Find the Perfect Pool/Snooker/Billiards Stance

When you fight your anatomy, you will wear yourself out sooner.
Good point. That's why some (if not most) people might need to make changes in their stance if they want to get their head in a better place "naturally," accurately, and consistently. I certainly needed to do this.

Also, consciously placing your head to make sure your cue isn't drifting under your dominant eye is contrary to playing in the zone. Any time you have to stop and remind yourself of something, you are not playing in the zone.
I have made many changes in my stance, stroke, and head position over the years. And none of these changes felt natural at first. That's why changes require practice and repetition ... to create a new "natural." Although, I don't mind consciously doing some things (like touch my chin to the cue to verify perfect alignment) if those things help me shoot better and promote confidence. Eventually, with enough practice and repetition, these conscious things will happen automatically (i.e., become natural or subconscious).

Regards,
Dave
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I actually never had my cue under my dominant eye. It was between my nose and dominant eye. Honestly, I am glad I didn't try to learn to adjust my aim to compensate for this non-ideal alignment. I prefer that my head be in the right place so my eyes and brain see every shot properly. Then no adjustments are required. When I first changed to my new head position, it wasn't comfortable, but I later made changes to my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place accurately and consistently with comfort. For those interested, I describe this in the later part of the following video:

NV J.21 – How to Find the Perfect Pool/Snooker/Billiards Stance

Good point. That's why some (if not most) people might need to make changes in their stance if they want to get their head in a better place "naturally," accurately, and consistently. I certainly needed to do this.

I have made many changes in my stance, stroke, and head position over the years. And none of these changes felt natural at first. That's why changes require practice and repetition ... to create a new "natural." Although, I don't mind consciously doing some things (like touch my chin to the cue to verify perfect alignment) if those things help me shoot better and promote confidence. Eventually, with enough practice and repetition, these conscious things will happen automatically (i.e., become natural or subconscious).

Regards,
Dave

Please don't twist my words, Dave. I don't twist yours. You're an intelligent guy. There's no need for that. You don't have to agree with me but don't try to turn my words against me. That's low class.
 
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