Can Other Tables Play Great? Besides BW's Diamonds?

Here's my response:


I for one would also love to hear informed, unbiased opinions on this topic myself. It only makes sense to me that if you started with a sturdy, well designed base frame and added high quality slate then it should just be a matter of railwork to get the table playing great. If that wouldn't work I wish someone would explain to me why not. Several of the tables you mention have the basic elements I mention: Connelly, Olhausen and Golden West come to mind. And have you ever looked at the base frame on a lowly A.E. Schmidt Hamilton? Who else still dowels the frame elements together these days? Yet in spite of the fact that old GCs often don't even have real slate and in the case of the III or IV (I forget which) are often prone to frame end sag, they are still held up to be the gold standard. I'm sure they're good, but is everything else really junk? You'd sure think so by most opinions here. And not everybody loves the looks of a Diamond or can play up to the level needed to get the most from one. Nor can everybody afford one.

I've put the pencil to it and I'd guess that if you were lucky enough to find a non-frankentable GC you'd have close to 4 grand in it by the time you got it home and up and running. And that's if you can find one to start with. They're getting scarcer. Yet many of the tables you mention are going begging for 500-600 bucks. So maybe you spend 1500-2000 to get the rails and pockets right. Do the math! Why wouldn't this work?

I don't mean to sound like I'm stating facts as much as theorizing. But I'd sure like for someone to set me straight if I'm wrong.

And this:

Not everyone who owns an Olhausen is even aware of the so-called "pocket rattle", and if one's game is that critical it appears to be a fairly easy fix. Think about it: if Olhausen tables were all unplayable would they continue to sell more tables than any other American manufacturer? I suspect they're a victim here of the GC/Diamond prejudice mentioned by the OP. I think a lot more people have read about it here and have subsequently jumped aboard the hate train than have actually experienced it.

It occurs to me that pool tables are a lot like major league ballparks. Sure, some of the characteristics are specified but not by any stretch are all variables spelled out and cast in stone. In both cases good players seem to adapt.

Then this:

Denwhit I sincerely hope we get RKC or someone else in his general range (I' not sure there in fact exists his equal) to take this seriously and comment on it. But I'll tell you that I kinda doubt it's gonna happen. My experience on Internet forums is that the quickest way to hear the sound of crickets is to attempt to inject logic and reason into a topic that most have preformed opinions and prejudices regarding.

Maybe if it had been posted on "Talk to a Mechanic" it would have drawn more attention. Would it be worth reposting there? I'd cut and paste my thoughts in the thread. I really think it merits serious discussion.

denwhit said:

And so I moved it. Hope we get some mechanics that can give us the answers. I think we're going to find out that the furniture pool table makers give you with zero options as to pocket sizes, etc.

Click to expand...

Right, but can't that be corrected by a qualified mechanic?

And as cheap as those things are, even the good ones, there would certainly seem to be plenty of financial room left to do just that. No, you likely wouldn't recoup your investment if you decided to sell but I'm talking about playing and not selling.

For what is worth I think Glenn has said that a table is only as good as the last mechanic who worked on it. If I have this wrong I apologize. I think that most any table can be set up to play well however is it worth the money to put into it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It all depends on what you consider a great playing table...

As was mentioned, you can configure a set of rails to play however you'd like. Of course, the mass of the rail will have an effect on how the cushions rebound, but you can get your pockets cut to whatever dimensions you want.

The single most important factor in how well a table plays is rigidity. The more rigid the table, the less vibration. The less vibration, the less energy loss. This equates to better banking rails, and longer traveling balls.

For this reason, there are a few things that every good playing table has:

• Sturdy legs

• Thick frame

• 1"+ Slate thickness

• Solid wood rails

• Rails bolted through the slate

• Knowledgeable technician to set it up

This is a condensed list, of course, but the basic principles are accounted for. From there, there are smaller details, which play a big role. If a table uses (3) 1/4" studs to hold each rail down to the slate, the rails are never going to play as solid as a table which uses (5) 3/8" bolts to secure each rail. Again, it's all about rigidity.

bradsh98 said:

It all depends on what you consider a great playing table...

As was mentioned, you can configure a set of rails to play however you'd like. Of course, the mass of the rail will have an effect on how the cushions rebound, but you can get your pockets cut to whatever dimensions you want.

The single most important factor in how well a table plays is rigidity. The more rigid the table, the less vibration. The less vibration, the less energy loss. This equates to better banking rails, and longer traveling balls.

For this reason, there are a few things that every good playing table has:

• Sturdy legs

• Thick frame

• 1"+ Slate thickness

• Solid wood rails

• Rails bolted through the slate

• Knowledgeable technician to set it up

This is a condensed list, of course, but the basic principles are accounted for. From there, there are smaller details, which play a big role. If a table uses (3) 1/4" studs to hold each rail down to the slate, the rails are never going to play as solid as a table which uses (5) 3/8" bolts to secure each rail. Again, it's all about rigidity.

Click to expand...

Geoff, thank you for this thoughtful and helpful response!

The items specified in your list would be somewhat of a given, but I hadn't given consideration to the rail bolts. This is exactly the kind of information that denwhit and I are looking for and is appreciated.

Im not a table mechanic but I did convert my Gold Crown I to current cushion specs and had the pockets tightened up to 4 3/8". I shipped the rails out to have them modified but I did the rest of the set-up myself including moving the table. I also extensively researched tables and modifications before I bought a table, this is what I had learned in the process.
First thing is I wish everyone would ease up on the Brunstone thing with the "Brunstone isnt real slate". Its not fake slate or MDF, its real stone and as had been mentioned on here by other table mechanics there is nothing wrong with it, so thats a non-issue. One problem with modifying rails and reducing pocket size is that the pocket shelf gets shallower as you tighten up the pockets, so you may or may not make the table more difficult by tightening the pockets, especially some of these tables that have 5 1/2" pockets. Many of the frames on cheaper tables are not very strong and many non commercial tables are made from MDF and/or particle board. As far as Olhausen I have only played on their commercial 9' tables, IMO they play terrible, bad enough that I wont bother going back to the pool room that has the Olhausens. Im sure it can be fixed but you would probably spend a lot of money on a table that may not be very valuable. It seems like everybody wants a table that "plays like a Diamond", that would be expensive and time consuming on many of these non commercial tables because they just are not very heavy. The weight makes the table stable and feel solid, that can be very difficult to duplicate on a residential table.

Every all hardwood tables from canada billiards meet those criterias. Frame corners are doweled. 3/8" hardware for every parts. Emplacement and serial # on every parts. Frames are made out of 2" thick. Leg levelers. Captured nutplate in the rails.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant AzBilliards Forums

I had a similar situation! Went with a antique brunswick table and had it tweaked by a professional! Very happy with the outcome! The older tables are tanks and furniture pieces.

FYI the best tables I ever played on were globall commercial tables at the reno super tournament. Everyone applauded those tables! Everyone! 2 inch slate or 1 1/2!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Table pictures



Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

to me even the gold crowns and diamonds leave something to desired, theres a difference between being flat, parallel and being level. A little background from me- I'm a machinist by trade that works in a shop and we rebuild fluid film thrust bearings for hydro dams, so think massive loads sometimes over 200 tons running on a thin film of oil. this is possible when you have to FLAT (im talking flatness under .0005" over 10 feet) parts and put some oil between them.

I recently picked up two gold crowns for 400$ and I definitely got my moneys worth.. anyways the slates are dowled and chipped and warped, one table I was donating to a local community center so I did the best I could with getting it in the best state I could, following the RKC instructions I found here It took me and a buddy 4 days of leveling and shimming and tightening and loosening and shimming and leveling and you get the idea.. I ended up removing all of the dowels in the slates and in the head slate i have like 6 playing cards to get the joint to match up.. its not ideal but for 200$ it is what it is.. so needless to say im in the market for new slates for my person gold crown table Im gonna build. but this is also my first concern. Id really like to know what their flatness tolerances were/are for the different brands and im skeptical to spend my money on something that isnt going to be correct in my eyes. Ive almost contemplated making replacement slates out of metal because I know I could get them perfect, Im not a stone mason by trade AND THEY WOULD NEVER WARP! I could cut the pocket shelfs perfect, radius them all that jazz and even dowel the rails into position...

the other idea Ive had would be to start with a calibrated surface place like the one pictured below. its 4'x8' (I would want a 10' ) but its grade a so it has a .0002" tolerance on being flat and level per foot :thumbup: I just dont know how to drill thru 10" of granite to bolt the rails down, posibly a waterjet would work...

Do you have any idea what that surface plate costs?
Ive never bought a big one that size, I'm a machinist, but they get pricey

Then think about moving and installing it, your need a forklift
Those are super rigid and mega heavy

Now a few of them, with dowelled pins that mate into each other, that'd be nice, if it weren't so costly

Drilling a thick piece like that I don't imagine would be very hard with the correct drill, thin peices though will breakout easier and more I'd guess


I've never cut stone, I'm thinking to take my slates to my job and skim both sides down no more than a 32nd

beneath_the_sur said:

Do you have any idea what that surface plate costs?
Ive never bought a big one that size, I'm a machinist, but they get pricey

Then think about moving and installing it, your need a forklift
Those are super rigid and mega heavy

Now a few of them, with dowelled pins that mate into each other, that'd be nice, if it weren't so costly

Drilling a thick piece like that I don't imagine would be very hard with the correct drill, thin peices though will breakout easier and more I'd guess


I've never cut stone, I'm thinking to take my slates to my job and skim both sides down no more than a 32nd

Click to expand...

This plate is about 6k pounds, new I couldnt imagine what they cost but I have seen them for free at local auctions you just have to move it.. ive never cut stone either, tile yes so id imagine its not terribly difficult with the right bit/ cutter possibly diamond coated? I was considering try out one of the bad slates I have, its pretty much useless as it is, I do wanna try to make the slates out of 1" thick hot rolled steel plate. I really dont see if it would effect the way the balls roll that much?

Big metal plate likes to bow as you mill it,

Would need grinding, which only increases the cost, alot

beneath_the_sur said:

Big metal plate likes to bow as you mill it,

Would need grinding, which only increases the cost, alot

Click to expand...

I have access to a 56" blanchard grinder, I can get it flat and parallel under .001" on that machine, I do it everyday

Nice resources

I would hate trying to jump a ball on that steel surface.

Food for thought!

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Steel would be harder than the slate, it'd get a lot more action I feel.. I can't jump anyways hahah