How good can one become??

frankncali said:

Whats your thoughts on how good any one person can become.
Do individuals have a ceiling?
Can anyone if they practice enough make it to a certain level?

What makes Pro players Pros? Is it just practice or is it something they just have?

What is it that Pros have that others that are topped out dont have?

I have read numerous times in interviews with Pros that they practice
X number of hours per day. Most of the time its high. I have been around many top players and can not ever remember seeing them practice that much.
Anyone around a top player that does practice alot and what is the practice consisting of? Anyone helping? Are they playing or shooting drills?


I know theres a lot of questions and thoughts here but someoe asked me why some players are Pro and not more. They could see Golf and some other sports because of physical skills but not pool.
Does the majority of the public think that pool can be mastered because its
not a physical sport?

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There is a ceiling most people would reach if they played 16 hours a day 7 days a week (including tournies and gambling) and for most people that level is below pro. For some people with the eyes, the feel for the game, confidence in themselves outside of pool, commitment like that turns into pro level pool.

Humans dont all think the same, they dont all have the same intelligence, some have brains that are very keyed in to the arts and can draw an amazing picture and find it simple, some excel at math and can understand with ease compicated systems at a glance, some pick up a cue and put in a few hours and start to take off. You can go into any pool hall and find guys that put ten hours a day into the game for ten+ years and dont shoot that good. There are also those guys that started playing pool 3 years ago and already win tournaments and are one of the top players in their city. Some people fly past the crew of people in a pool hall and get far better playing the same tournaments (only they win) and gambling the same hours after hours (although they rapidly progress through the players to the top).

Dave Martin was a top player in Calgary behind only Bernie Mikkelsen at 20 years old, he simply had the touch and skills and self confidence to excel at the game past other people that played just as much pool as he did. There is little money in the game to interest him but if the money were huge he could have been at the top with a huge time commitment. On the other hand I know people who have just as much if not more commitment to the game but they are nowhere near Dave's level and never will be no matter what they do.

Another thing that is hugely important is starting young, those early years in life (4-5 years old and up) are HUGE in getting truely awesome at a sport. A kids brain at that age is a open book, they absorb the information of angles, the muscle memory, the speed of shots, the reactions of the balls, FAR more then if you start the game in the later years like your teens. It is ALOT harder to get to the pro level from starting past 10 years old. We dont have our Tiger Woods yet, the kid that is bred to play pool from the time they are born and was playing great already at 6 or 7 years old. You have to get lucky, it takes the fluke of the kid having the natural ability that would make him one of the fast progressors if he started later in life, and then instead of letting him start later in life getting him into the game from the time he can walk. By the time the kid was 14 years old when alot of us start shooting pool and getting good the kid would already be shooting near pro level pool and running multiple racks.

the truth lies somewhere in between but closer to "pure talent" that seperates the pros from everyone else.

pros are not great because they practice, pros practice because they are great. they practice to hone what they already have. playing, practicing,,,,,it's like breathing to them. they simply DO.

some players love to play,,,,pros HAVE to play. it is their blessing, it is their curse. they are merely being what they are meant to be.

frankncali said:

Whats your thoughts on how good any one person can become.
Do individuals have a ceiling?
Can anyone if they practice enough make it to a certain level?

What makes Pro players Pros? Is it just practice or is it something they just have?

What is it that Pros have that others that are topped out dont have?

I have read numerous times in interviews with Pros that they practice
X number of hours per day. Most of the time its high. I have been around many top players and can not ever remember seeing them practice that much.
Anyone around a top player that does practice alot and what is the practice consisting of? Anyone helping? Are they playing or shooting drills?


I know theres a lot of questions and thoughts here but someoe asked me why some players are Pro and not more. They could see Golf and some other sports because of physical skills but not pool.
Does the majority of the public think that pool can be mastered because its
not a physical sport?

Click to expand...

Pool is not that hard of a game. Most anyone who wants to put in the time will become a very good player. You see it all the time with someone whose father has a pool room and grows up playing. They may not have natural talent but can play. Some players are naturals like Dennis Hatch. Then others are a result of a lot of work. I have known lots of very good players who had little natural talent but worked hard.

macguy said:

Pool is not that hard of a game. Most anyone who wants to put in the time will become a very good player. You see it all the time with someone whose father has a pool room and grows up playing. They may not have natural talent but can play. Some players are naturals like Dennis Hatch. Then others are a result of a lot of work. I have known lots of very good players who had little natural talent but worked hard.

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Im gonna go out on a limb and a little against the normal thinking and say sometimes I believe those that dont have the natural ability may go farther than some of those naturals.

It seems to me that some people with natural talent get good very quickly. But once they hit a level that is going to take work to get past they are spoiled by their quick improvement and unwilling to put in the work to progress. Not all of them of course, but its true of several.

I think most people can get better than they really think they can if they are willing to get good instruction and put in some work.

Woody

woody_968 said:

Im gonna go out on a limb and a little against the normal thinking and say sometimes I believe those that dont have the natural ability may go farther than some of those naturals.

It seems to me that some people with natural talent get good very quickly. But once they hit a level that is going to take work to get past they are spoiled by their quick improvement and unwilling to put in the work to progress. Not all of them of course, but its true of several.

I think most people can get better than they really think they can if they are willing to get good instruction and put in some work.

Woody

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I agree that someone without natural ability can
become very good at pool with practice and
dedication.

I am firm believer that many players are limited
by their minds, negative thoughts and such. I've
seen many players that practiced very hard and
attained a good degree of skill just become
disillusioned when things got tough and quit
practicing.

I think the key is to stay positive and never doubt
yourself and put into it whatever it takes. I heard
someone once say that John Schmidt used to play
the ghost in 9-ball sometimes for 8 straight hours,
most people simply won't do that. Another example,
Steve Davis the great snooker player is said to
have practiced an insane amount of hours. He would
practice the drill of hitting the cueball the length
of the table and back to his cue tip for over an
hour! That's dedcation.

You don't have to start young, you don't have to practice a lot, and you don't have to be a natural. I started at 45 (54 now), I rarely practice, and it didn't come naturally. I have won over 200 tournaments (mostly between $100 and $200 but as much as $10,000) of 9 ball and won a lot more $ at one-pocket but not in tournaments so much. I am still getting better and I am hoping to make a break through in some pro tournaments this year. My key is that I always have a desire to improve and I am always looking for ways to get better and I try to always do it a little more at a time. I love to be in competition but I've tried to never go far out of my league. As I got better I looked for better competition and I always hated getting spotted but have never minded giving big spots to get a game.

Now if I can only take the time to actually practice 9 ball patterns (I think I've only practiced 9 ball a total of about 20 hours in my life) and get up the interest to match up in 9 ball I think I could do some real damage.

Wayne

wayne said:

I started at 45 (54 now), I rarely practice, and it didn't come naturally. I have won over 200 tournaments (mostly between $100 and $200 but as much as $10,000) of 9 ball and won a lot more $ at one-pocket but not in tournaments so much.

Wayne

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Uh huh. You have been playing for a total of 9 years after starting at 45 years old, you rarely practice (and practice includes playing tournaments and gambling BTW, shooting pool is practice) and yet you are near pro level with no natural talent to boot. I am sorry I dont buy it. If you truely are near pro level after 9 years starting the game at 45 and never practicing you have a natural affinity for the game whether you want to believe it or not. I also think your "rarely practicing" statement is not taking into account a ton of pool you play. You may not do drills or sit and play by yourself but getting into gambling sessions and playing in tournaments against other top players is practice, it is some of the best practice you can do.

wayne said:

You don't have to start young, you don't have to practice a lot, and you don't have to be a natural.
Wayne

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Spoken like a true natural.

Jake

This post made me start thinking about my progression as a player. I have said it many times that I played some of my best pool on the road as opposed to playing tournaments. I spent many years scratching my head wondering why I couldn't break through at the top level. I played at their level, but there was something missing, that special ingredient, and it can best be described as knowing that you belong there. If there is any doubt in your mind at any level, in any tournament final as to whether or not you belong there, then you don't. I spent many years trying and scraping my way through tournaments before I realized that I had a gift for teaching this game. There was time when I was unaware that I had the ability to teach and pass along the knowledge that I had. After that, it took a long time for me to accept my place in the pool world.

Not all of us can be Efren Reyes, not all of us can be Allison Fisher, not all of us can run tournaments like Jay Helfert, Scott Smith, or Steve Tipton. Not all of us are George Balabushka or Gus Szamboti. It does not mean that the quality of our work is any less, or means less. We all love this game and it takes all of us to make it great. It takes all of us to give it variety. If you truly love this game and there is a fire that burns in your heart and soul, do something every day to keep that fire strong. If that fire warms your heart, then it won't matter what level you play at, or what others think of your abilities, your accomplishments, or lack of accomplishments. All that will matter is your love for the game.

I know now that everything I experienced on the road as a player was merely preparing me for what I am doing now. I get more joy from teaching, writing, and coaching than I ever did as a player. Today I enjoy being an encourager, and I do not take that role lightly. In fact, I thank God for this road I have traveled. I think that if I ever had the success of an Efren Reyes or Johnny Archer, it would have been a great disservice to players I have helped over the years. When you understand how that works in the Universe, you also understand that all of your disappointments and setbacks are really God's way of pointing you back on the road He wants you to travel.

On the physical side ...

Blackjack said:

I get more joy from teaching, writing, and coaching than I ever did as a player. Today I enjoy being an encourager, and I do not take that role lightly.

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Thanks Blackjack, I for one appreciate all your efforts in publishing material on the Internet. You are likely helping more players than you realize ...

I spent some time hanging around the halls (OK, the gym really) of our University Phys Ed (now Kinesiology) department. One of our track coaches was big into biomechanics, and with me into electronics, I was attracted to their various test gizmos. Long story short, when you measure human physical abilities you see differences between people. I recall that some of the best athletes were more precise in their motions, more consistant in their performances, and a big one was they are often faster than others, not that I think that speed and reaction time have much bearing on pool playing performance. The other physical abilities do influence how well one can play any particular game, including pool.

Another issue that one sees regularly in the gym is 'coachability'. When dealing with physical motion practice under the eyes of a coach, the athlete is often asked to change something (ie: keep your elbow steady, don't move the sholder). The better athletes can adapt their motions given various feedback, incluing being coached. Lesser athletes need to be shown more times and/or ways. Some just have this mental block and refuse to believe something is even happening (ie: my sholder is not moving, I can feel it, so I'm already doing what you asked and don't need to change anything). Many understand the feedback, try to correct whatever flaw needs correcting, but cannot differentiate the motion and as a result only partially correct the flaw.

In other words, some people are very coordinated, some are quite klutzy, and most of us are somewhere in between.

So, I believe that everyone has a 'ceiling' to their physical abilities. The rough part is that we have no way to judge where we stand in what some might call 'raw talent', nor can we easily tell where others rate. Makes for interesting competition to say the least !

Dave, who wishes he didn't apply scientific method to games playing... after all, ignorance is bliss.

I agree with most of the previous posts. I believe there is an inherent skill level in all players that they will not rise above. That being said, many players never reach their own plateau. I think you have to practice and hone your skills to reach your ultimate level of play.

Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the ability to play for pressure. I'm sure most of us have seen someone who plays extroardinarily well when there is no pressure and terrible when there is pressure. I remember an old post describing a player from, I believe it was the '60?, that played 14-1 and when practicing, typically ran 400 or 500 balls all the time but when he got into a tournament, he could win. If you can't play for the pressure, then you have to settle for enjoying the ability to play without it.

frankncali said:

Whats your thoughts on how good any one person can become.
Do individuals have a ceiling?
Can anyone if they practice enough make it to a certain level?

What makes Pro players Pros? Is it just practice or is it something they just have?

What is it that Pros have that others that are topped out dont have?

I have read numerous times in interviews with Pros that they practice
X number of hours per day. Most of the time its high. I have been around many top players and can not ever remember seeing them practice that much.
Anyone around a top player that does practice alot and what is the practice consisting of? Anyone helping? Are they playing or shooting drills?


I know theres a lot of questions and thoughts here but someoe asked me why some players are Pro and not more. They could see Golf and some other sports because of physical skills but not pool.
Does the majority of the public think that pool can be mastered because its
not a physical sport?

Click to expand...

You think a person who spends the majority of their free time in a poolroom is equipped to answer that question? Seriously, there is only one ceiling: Perfection. Is it attainable? That's anybody's guess.

Why do some go pro and others don't? That's a life question. Everyone has their own answer to that.


Jude M. Rosenstock

I've always been curious about the whole natural talent vs
determination question too. Maybe we can do a survey of
sorts on AZ to get an idea?
Anyone want to answer (or add questions):
1) were you considered a natural talent at some point in
time? what were peoples' expectations of you when you
started coming up?
2) how long did it take you (after you started playing
seriously) to reach the B level?
3) how was your progress after hitting the B level? did
it slow down a lot? did you keep progressing quickly? what
kind of things slowed down your progress..or what
deficiencies did you notice (speed control, stroke, eye, etc)
4) did you make it past the B level? how long did it take?
how did you improve to your current level?

peace
-Egg

Egg McDogit said:

I've always been curious about the whole natural talent vs
determination question too. Maybe we can do a survey of
sorts on AZ to get an idea?
Anyone want to answer (or add questions):
1) were you considered a natural talent at some point in
time? what were peoples' expectations of you when you
started coming up?
2) how long did it take you (after you started playing
seriously) to reach the B level?
3) how was your progress after hitting the B level? did
it slow down a lot? did you keep progressing quickly? what
kind of things slowed down your progress..or what
deficiencies did you notice (speed control, stroke, eye, etc)
4) did you make it past the B level? how long did it take?
how did you improve to your current level?

peace
-Egg

Click to expand...

I can answer all those questions very simply. Many people's expectations were that pool was a fad and that I would someday come to my senses and pursue an edcuation. I have played this game at a very respectably high level since I was 11 or 12 years old. If I was a B player at any time in my development, I don't remember. I do remember setting personal goals and milestones, or preparing to play this player or that player. I learned to judge my skill on who I could match up with, rather than the label of A, B, C, or D. You are what you think you are. My goal was to win tournaments. If I won, I was successful. If I didn't win, I tried to find out why, and then I did something about it.

How long did it take? Hard to really say. What did it take? Listen up, because I'm pretty sure Keith will give you a similar response. I sacrificed a lot of time, friends, relationships, and common sense to do what I did for many years. For every plus there were two negatives. That's the stuff you don't hear about. My advice? Make friends with some of the best players. For me it was guys like Cisero Murphy,Mike Carella, Louie Roberts, David Howard, Buddy Hall, just to name a few. All of those guys played great pool, but they also had a lot to offer in the area of strategy, determination, and the will to win. Surround yourself with champions and pick their brains. Find out what they do and why they do it. You can possess all the talent in the world, but if you don't know how to use it effectively, it will nly take you so far. There's an old saying that goes, Talent does what it can; genius does what it must. From that, I get the message that there is no sure pattern for successs, mainly because it depends on your determination. That means that talent can be measured, but your heart can't. Remember that.

How good can someone become?

What I know most about is the sport of motocross racing, now known as Supercross but there are some things I believe to be analogous. I was at motorcycle dealer meeting in Las Vegas in the 1980's and we were talking with the best factory riders in the country. Bob Hannah had no peer at the time and he was asked who besides himself did he think was the best rider in motocross. Without hesitation he answered that the best and most naturally talented rider was Marty Tripes and that when Tripes trained and prepared for a race everyone, including himself, raced for 2nd place. He said he also knew that at the seasons end he would be the champion because Tripes would only train and prepare for a few races because partying was more important to him. My point is, IMO, if someone has natural ability and works hard too a hard worker will never beat them. Also, IMO all other things being equal someone who starts young will always excel beyond those who start older because everything becomes more intuitive. I started playing pool at 47 and became an APA 7 in a couple years and feel I haven't reached my ceiling but the gains are coming in much smaller increments now. I don't like it but I enjoy playing the game so much that I'll live with it. Occasionally I sneak up on a better player and win and that keeps me motivated.

whitewolf said:

Then please explain why Ralph Soquet never practices (this is per a conversation I had with Tony Robles) and only plays once a week in local tournaments, yet he still shoots great pool.

I will give you a hint. He supposedly is the biggest mind guru in billiards today. In other words he studies the mental side of pool (and anything) more so than you or I could ever imagin. This again was per Tony Robles. BTW, Tony loves the mental aspects of pool and wishes that he had the time Ralph has.

Having said that, I don't see how Ralph does it. I guess it is like you said, he simply does it, but not in a manner that a normal human being could understand LOL.

Click to expand...

you are only supporting me. souquet, then, doesn't NEED to practice. irregardless of the mental aspects he indulges in,,,apparantly he doesn't have to practice.

however if you read my first statement,,,,,,"pros(greats) are not great because they practice, they practice because the are great." and apparantly,,,,his mental exercises ARE his form of practice.

I believe that there are four factors that influence how good of a player you can become.

1. God given ability:
Things like hand-eye co-ordination, feel for weight control,vision etc etc. All of us know a friend or a person who is good at almost every sport he plays.This person learns and develops very quickly, while many of us make slower gains with much hard work.

2. Proper fundamentals:
The difference between a professional and an amatuer is that the majority of the pros hit the cue ball where they are aiming to hit the cue ball. Despite all the various stances and strokes (some ugly) they manage to deliver the cue straight on the final swing to the cue ball. There is something right about their alignment,bridge,stance,head etc etc. In most cases professional instruction from a qualified instructor is nessecary to obtain this.Without proper fundamentals you can practice until you are blue in the face and you will eventually plataeu and be stuck at a certain level.

3.Dedication and practice:

Neils Feijen and Tony Robles have worked real hard with Bert kinister and done his drills. Their games reflect their hard work.The more you play(with proper fundamentals) the more you improve so lots of table time really helps.

4. Knowledge:

In years gone by there were many secrets in pool that were seldom shared. Today with dvd's and videos a wealth of knowledge is available to anyone. The pros also almost all have well known secret aiming systems that they'll seldom or if ever share with their students. (Why? Because they want them to repeatingly come back for more lessons).The angle dictates the shot and they know exactly where to aim and where to sight through the cue ball on all shots. They know that there are only a small handful of lineups that will make any ball from anywhere, where as the amatuer thinks that there are an infinite number of angle and shots.The pros KNOW where to aim, while the amatuers aim where they THINK is the right contact point and that's the difference. Someone (knowledgable in the pool world) once said to me , without an aiming system in most cases you will only progress so far and then you will plateau.The pros(for the most part) all have deadly aiming systems.

5.Mental:

Your mental makeup will determine how you do in competition. There are several books on the mental game and various breathing techniques and mental practices can be learned. The best mental training is to jump into the fire and play players that are better than you. Enter lots of tournaments and money games, because getting acclimitized to the water is huge in mental preparation.

6. Heart and Desire:

Many times during practice you will feel like quiting , especially when learning things (like a new stance) that will set your game two steps before it goes forward three or more steps.Also practice the things that your the worst at and make them your strength. No-one like practising rail shots or bridging over balls etc, becuse there will be many dissapointing moments in practice. Heart and desire will take you a long way.

Everyone who does the above things can and will improve. Where you plateau is enterily up to you as to how much you maximize your God given ability.


As for me, I need to work hard on my mental game because I can do amazing things in practice (for me,atmy level) however, I haven't quit figured out how to bring it(consistently) when it really counts.And it drives me crazy. RJ

Meant to write 6 factors on the above post. RJ

whitewolf said:

Then please explain why Ralph Soquet never practices (this is per a conversation I had with Tony Robles) and only plays once a week in local tournaments, yet he still shoots great pool.

I will give you a hint. He supposedly is the biggest mind guru in billiards today. In other words he studies the mental side of pool (and anything) more so than you or I could ever imagin. This again was per Tony Robles. BTW, Tony loves the mental aspects of pool and wishes that he had the time Ralph has.

Having said that, I don't see how Ralph does it. I guess it is like you said, he simply does it, but not in a manner that a normal human being could understand LOL.

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Years ago a famous experiment was conducted. They (I have no idea who 'they' are ...) took three groups of people and tested their ability to shoot basketball foul shots, thus creating a baseline. Then they asked one group to practice shooting for some time. Another group was asked to do nothing. The third group was asked to practice foul shots IN THEIR HEAD, to the same extent that the real-practice group practiced. Later they re-tested all three groups on the court. The do-nothing group had not improved. The real-practice group were better. But so was the mental-practice group ! The point is that you do not need to perform the physical activity to gain motor-memory, it can be gained through mental practice. I should be a star by now ...

Dave