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Shuddy
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07-17-2019, 01:28 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Not the point, Dave.

There's theory and practice. In practice, extremely few players will ever do what it takes to get their fundamentals in strong working order. The vast majority of players have a huge problem keeping the cue straight when they hit the cue ball hard with an open bridge. These players need, to use your term, the "crutch" that a closed bridge offers.

I agree that the open bridge can be as effective for draw in theory, but this just doesn't hold up in practice for the vast majority of players, and the idea that more than a very small percentage of players with stroke flaws will do something about it can be added to your list of myths.

All of that said, Dave, great job on your ten myths list and accompanying video.
Does a closed bridge actually stop the cue from moving around? Obviously it can stop the cue from lifting up, but it surely doesnít do anything for side to side. Itís still a single pivot point. And lifting up after contact isnít necessarily detrimental to the stroke, particularly in the case of power draw. You see a lot of snooker players lifting the cue up on the their follow through on full length of the table screw shots, particularly when getting the cue ball back to balk is more important than accuracy.
  
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07-17-2019, 01:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I just posted a new YouTube video that demonstrates and debunks the following Top 10 common pool and billiard myths and misconceptions:

1 - If you elevate the cue, you get more draw.
2 - A closed bridge is better for draw shots.
3 - Sidespin affects the path the CB takes off the OB.
4 - A swooping or swiping stroke can apply more sidespin.
5 - LD shafts allow you to put more spin on the ball.
6 - Throw is not important in pool.
7 - Spin transfer is not important in pool.
8 - More spin creates more SIT.
9 - The stroke “type” changes the shot action.
10 - Finding your “dominant eye” is important.

Check it out. Here it is:

NV J.25 – Top 10 Pool and Billiard Myths Busted and Debunked

It is part of my recent Top 10 series.

Enjoy,
Dave
Dave, I’ve played quite a lot of English billiards with world class billiards players, and something very common is using side to affect the path of the cueball when playing losing hazards. For example, if playing a half ball in-off but the natural angle would swing the cueball wide of the pocket, check side (inside English) will narrow the angle of the cueball to make the in-off. The check side version of these shots is usually played fairly slowly, which allows the nap of the cloth to grab the cueball, but the running side version to swing the ball wider can be played with a fair bit of pace. I’m not sure that nap can account for this,

Any thoughts? Oh, this is in regard to point 3 obviously.

EDIT: Further thoughts: When I think about doing this on a snooker table, (I don’t have access to one in the country I currently live) it doesn’t make any difference playing a stun shot, which is how you demonstrated it in the video. This makes sense because the cueball is basically rotating horizontally when playing stun with side, so the cueball is not actually gripping the cloth to be pulled in any direction. Playing with top and side however, which is how one of the above mentioned shots would be played, particularly to swing the ball wider, results in more vertical rotation of the cueball, allowing the cueball to grip the cloth and be pulled in a different direction.

EDIT 2: I guess you’re still correct in that it might not affect the initial rebound direction. But if the practical application of using side does result in a different cue ball path over an extended distance, is it worth debunking the myth?

I have a similar thought regarding stroke affecting action. I think there are numerous benefits to having a smooth stroke with a nice follow through and appropriate acceleration of the cue at point of impact with the cueball. Barry Stark has a neat video on this demonstrating an increased tip contact with the cueball of 250 microsecond when the player self reported timing a shot well, which is also related to follow through, etc.

His video alone perhaps proves that stroke type can affect action on the ball, but I would never encourage anyone to have a short jabby stroke and wonder if it’s worth debunking if that is a side effect.

Last edited by Shuddy; 07-17-2019 at 02:20 AM.
  
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07-17-2019, 05:39 AM

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Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
You can drive a car with or without doors just the same.

However, if you make a fast turn you may fall out the door.

The same goes for a closed bridge on power draw shots. You don't necessarily need one, but it is a "safety" factor. It keeps your cue from flying "up/around" should you do something wrong when you are delivering your stroke.
Good analogy and point.

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 05:55 AM

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Originally Posted by KMRUNOUT View Post
I'd say I agree with all the other ones. However, I do think that LD cues allow you to maintain shot accuracy for a larger amount of spin. It certainly doesn't produce more, but if making the ball is the minimum standard, it lets me more reliably spin the ball a LOT.
I agree that this is one potential advantage of an LD shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMRUNOUT View Post
I'd argue that if there is spin induced throw on the object ball, then there MUST be a corresponding alteration in the path of the cueball. Conservation of energy and all...
That is true. Sidespin affects the OB path; but for a given ghost-ball position, it doesn't affect the CB's tangent-line direction. For more info and illustrations, see:

CB path sidespin effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMRUNOUT View Post
I'd argue that elevating the cue can potentially produce "more draw" in so much as that alteration may result in a cueball that is airborne for a greater amount of the distance to the object ball, thus alleviating the spin reducing effect of friction.
It is true that no backspin is lost when the CB is airborne; however, much more spin is lost when the CB is driven down into the table off the tip. For more info, see the physics link here:

draw shot cue elevation effects

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMRUNOUT View Post
I'd argue that finding one's vision center is vitally important, and I believe that one's vision center is a function of which eye is dominant and the degree of that dominance. As such I'd argue that "finding one's dominant eye" and "finding one's vision center" are functionally equivalent.
For many people (including myself), the "vision center" position has nothing to do with which eye is dominant or not. For example, my right eye is clearly dominant (based on the standard dominant eye tests), but my vision center position is with the cue directly between my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMRUNOUT View Post
As my 11th grade history teacher loved to say: "Thoughts? Questions? Pithy remarks?"
Thank you for questioning some of my ideas. My 11th grade teacher always said how important this is.

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
3 - Sidespin affects the path the CB takes off the OB.
When drawing the ball, adding inside spin certainly changes the path of the cue ball. The cue ball picks up a little massť and turns slightly. Am I wrong?
  
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07-17-2019, 06:14 AM

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Originally Posted by AF pool guy View Post
One thing I havenít seen mentioned on the closed vs open bridge for draw is that it is easier to establish a very low bridge with a closed bridge.

With the closed bridge I can place my thumb right on the felt and bridge as low as the thickness of my thumb but with an open bridge Iím over the meaty part of my palm. Iíd say the difference is at least a half an inch. Which enables me to keep the cue as flat as the rail allows.
Good point. This can be the case for some people. Although, for people who have the middle finger under the cue with a closed bridge, an open bridge will typically allow the cue to be lower. That is the case for me.

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Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Youíre also not able to hit as low on the cueball when you elevate.
You can actually get the same effective offset from center with any cue elevation.

Some people who are afraid to aim low on the ball might actually get more spin when they elevate. For more info, see the following illustration from the cue elevation effects resource page.


Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Does a closed bridge actually stop the cue from moving around? Obviously it can stop the cue from lifting up, but it surely doesnít do anything for side to side. Itís still a single pivot point. And lifting up after contact isnít necessarily detrimental to the stroke, particularly in the case of power draw. You see a lot of snooker players lifting the cue up on the their follow through on full length of the table screw shots, particularly when getting the cue ball back to balk is more important than accuracy.
Good points. It doesn't really matter what happens to the cue after the CB is already gone.

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Dave, Iíve played quite a lot of English billiards with world class billiards players, and something very common is using side to affect the path of the cueball when playing losing hazards. For example, if playing a half ball in-off but the natural angle would swing the cueball wide of the pocket, check side (inside English) will narrow the angle of the cueball to make the in-off. The check side version of these shots is usually played fairly slowly, which allows the nap of the cloth to grab the cueball, but the running side version to swing the ball wider can be played with a fair bit of pace. Iím not sure that nap can account for this,

Any thoughts? Oh, this is in regard to point 3 obviously.

EDIT: Further thoughts: When I think about doing this on a snooker table, (I donít have access to one in the country I currently live) it doesnít make any difference playing a stun shot, which is how you demonstrated it in the video. This makes sense because the cueball is basically rotating horizontally when playing stun with side, so the cueball is not actually gripping the cloth to be pulled in any direction. Playing with top and side however, which is how one of the above mentioned shots would be played, particularly to swing the ball wider, results in more vertical rotation of the cueball, allowing the cueball to grip the cloth and be pulled in a different direction.

EDIT 2: I guess youíre still correct in that it might not affect the initial rebound direction. But if the practical application of using side does result in a different cue ball path over an extended distance, is it worth debunking the myth?
Good points. Sidespin can affect the CB path (for a given ghost-ball contact position), but not by as much as some people might think, and not for the reasons they might think. For more info and illustrations, see:

effects of sidespin on CB trajectory


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
I have a similar thought regarding stroke affecting action. I think there are numerous benefits to having a smooth stroke with a nice follow through and appropriate acceleration of the cue at point of impact with the cueball.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Barry Stark has a neat video on this demonstrating an increased tip contact with the cueball of 250 microsecond when the player self reported timing a shot well, which is also related to follow through, etc.
Accelerating into the ball can have a small effect on tip contact time, but the increase in contact time has very little or no effect on the shot. For more info, see the cue tip contact time resource page.

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:41 AM

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Originally Posted by FeelDaShot View Post
When drawing the ball, adding inside spin certainly changes the path of the cue ball. The cue ball picks up a little massť and turns slightly. Am I wrong?
FYI, this topic is covered in the following video:

NV B.25 – Using draw and sidespin to beat a scratch in a side pocket

With a near-level cue, the effect is not as useful as you might think.

With cue elevation, the masse effect can be larger. For examples, see:

after-collision masse

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 06:50 AM

Thanks Dave and company for the informative video

Seems my "nip" draw question was properly addressed.


A bull without horns is still dangerous.

Law of logical arguement-Anything is possible when you dont know what you are talking about.

  
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07-17-2019, 07:09 AM

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Originally Posted by alphadog View Post
Thanks Dave and company for the informative video
You're welcome. We aim to swerve.

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Originally Posted by alphadog View Post
Seems my "nip" draw question was properly addressed.
I'm glad to hear it.

Catch you later,
Dave
  
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07-17-2019, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Does a closed bridge actually stop the cue from moving around?
No, it guarantees nothing and is not needed for an accomplished player except when they opt for it.

That said, for the vast majority of players, the closed bridge makes it easier to keep the cue from wobbling a bit from side to side for those with less than adequate stroke fundamentals, which means most players. Even Dave had conceded the closed bridge can be a "crutch" for those who require it. As we all seem to understand, though, with training and instruction, the "crutch" will not be necessary.
  
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07-17-2019, 07:13 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
You can actually get the same effective offset from center with any cue elevation.

Some people who are afraid to aim low on the ball might actually get more spin when they elevate. For more info, see the following illustration from the cue elevation effects resource page.


Regards,
Dave

Thatís just not true. Certainly not in reference to elevations that are going to make the cueball leave the table for any significant period of time. Your diagram is for just below center. You can hit just below center from a wide range of cue elevation angles. Not so for hitting well below center and therefore draw shots. And even if you someone does perform some acrobatics to be able strike the cueball low enough and with extreme cue elevation as to equal the same contact point as someone playing deep draw with a flat cue, their follow through is going to be so minimal that it drastically reduces the effectiveness of the draw shot, which is the point you demonstrate in your video.

With regards to the microseconds of extended contact with the cueball, itís Barry Starkís argument, and I agree with him, that this minuscule amount of extra time in contact with the cueball is what results in Ďsweet timingí. And his little experiment supported this. His pro reported when he timed the ball well, and these shots matched the shots that the Slomo camera recorded as having extended contact with the cueball. I think we can all agree that as soon as we hit a shot that feels well timed, we no know weíre going to get a bunch of work on the ball. I think those microseconds make a big difference on the cueball.

Look at someone like Ronnie O. He times the ball beautifully and moves the cueball effortlessly. He can move the cueball around a lap of the table with half the effort that other pros use, and I think itís because he times his acceleration perfectly. And i donít think that same timing is possible with a short jabby stroke.

Now technically, I suspect youíre right in saying that if the short jabby stroke is able to reproduce the same acceleration and power as the long flowing stroke, then yes, youíll get the same result. But the short jabby stroke is unable to produce a whole range of shots that a flowing stroke with a long follow through can. Mark Allen, about the only snooker pro with a short jabby action, admits himself that his action lets him down, that he is unable to play the range of shots that other pros can, and that when heís playing in less than ideal conditions, this really hampers his game.
  
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07-17-2019, 07:21 AM

Technically, you don't need a bridge at all to draw the ball. You can draw the ball one handed. And hypothetically, you don't need a stroke at all to draw the ball. You can throw the cue like a javelin and make perfect contact to draw the ball. But does it give you the best chance for success...no!

Last edited by FeelDaShot; 07-17-2019 at 07:24 AM.
  
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