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  (#46)
jtaylor996
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07-17-2019, 08:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Does a closed bridge actually stop the cue from moving around? Obviously it can stop the cue from lifting up, but it surely doesnít do anything for side to side. Itís still a single pivot point. And lifting up after contact isnít necessarily detrimental to the stroke, particularly in the case of power draw. You see a lot of snooker players lifting the cue up on the their follow through on full length of the table screw shots, particularly when getting the cue ball back to balk is more important than accuracy.
I'd say no. I played open bridge most of my life, and closed for about the last 2 years, and I think I may switch back.

The reason why is that there are more variables with your finger/hand position involved in making a closed bridge. If your index finger is not in the exact same place or moves at all during the stroke, then the shaft will shift.

The shaft is riding on/against more surfaces on a closed bridge, so that means more surfaces have to get in and remain in perfect alignment for consistency.

I think moving forward I'm going to use open except: getting very low on the ball and rail shots. I did a bunch of experimenting last night for a couple of hours, and this is what I've decided is going to work best for me moving forward.

Power draw has 0% to do with the bridge for me. It's all follow through and acceleration on the stroke, in my experience. I get exactly the same amount of draw on those shots open or closed, as I tested last night.
  
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  (#47)
Patrick Johnson
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07-17-2019, 08:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
You can drive a car with or without doors just the same.

However, if you make a fast turn you may fall out the door.

The same goes for a closed bridge on power draw shots. You don't necessarily need one, but it is a "safety" factor. It keeps your cue from flying "up/around" should you do something wrong when you are delivering your stroke.
You'd have to do something pretty weird with your stroke for that to happen before hitting the CB.

I don't think a closed bridge fixes any common stroke flaw - "closed bridge works better for draw" is a myth.

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  (#48)
dr_dave
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07-17-2019, 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor996 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Does a closed bridge actually stop the cue from moving around? Obviously it can stop the cue from lifting up, but it surely doesnít do anything for side to side. Itís still a single pivot point. And lifting up after contact isnít necessarily detrimental to the stroke, particularly in the case of power draw. You see a lot of snooker players lifting the cue up on the their follow through on full length of the table screw shots, particularly when getting the cue ball back to balk is more important than accuracy.
I'd say no. I played open bridge most of my life, and closed for about the last 2 years, and I think I may switch back.

The reason why is that there are more variables with your finger/hand position involved in making a closed bridge. If your index finger is not in the exact same place or moves at all during the stroke, then the shaft will shift.

The shaft is riding on/against more surfaces on a closed bridge, so that means more surfaces have to get in and remain in perfect alignment for consistency.

I think moving forward I'm going to use open except: getting very low on the ball and rail shots. I did a bunch of experimenting last night for a couple of hours, and this is what I've decided is going to work best for me moving forward.
Well stated. FYI, I've added a partial quote of your post on the advantages of an open bridge resource page.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor996 View Post
Power draw has 0% to do with the bridge for me. It's all follow through and acceleration on the stroke, in my experience. I get exactly the same amount of draw on those shots open or closed, as I tested last night.
That is my experience as well; although, I think the open bridge is slightly better since there is less friction.

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#49)
Patrick Johnson
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07-17-2019, 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Your diagram is for just below center.
The diagram of the elevated cue shows a contact point at maximum draw.

Dave's right that you can hit just as far above or below center with either stroke. As shown, centerball (and the maximum draw contact point) is elevated when the cue is elevated.

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  (#50)
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07-17-2019, 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HawaiianEye View Post
You can drive a car with or without doors just the same.

However, if you make a fast turn you may fall out the door.

The same goes for a closed bridge on power draw shots. You don't necessarily need one, but it is a "safety" factor. It keeps your cue from flying "up/around" should you do something wrong when you are delivering your stroke.
You'd have to do something pretty weird with your stroke for that to happen before hitting the CB.

I don't think a closed bridge fixes any common stroke flaw - "closed bridge works better for draw" is a myth.
A closed bridge can definitely help somebody who tends to lift the cue up before the hit (e.g., by tightening the grip firmly during the stroke). In this case, the "closed bridge will work better for draw" (but not for the reasons they might think).

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#51)
dr_dave
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07-17-2019, 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
You can actually get the same effective offset from center with any cue elevation.

Some people who are afraid to aim low on the ball might actually get more spin when they elevate. For more info, see the following illustration from the cue elevation effects resource page.

Your diagram is for just below center.
The diagram of the elevated cue shows a contact point at maximum draw.

Dave's right that you can hit just as far above or below center with either stroke. As shown, centerball (and the maximum draw contact point) is elevated when the cue is elevated.
PJ,

Thank you for helping to make this point.

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#52)
Shuddy
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07-17-2019, 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The diagram of the elevated cue shows a contact point at maximum draw.

Dave's right that you can hit just as far above or below center with either stroke. As shown, centerball (and the maximum draw contact point) is elevated when the cue is elevated.

pj
chgo
Ugh, relative to center ball based on the angle of the cue. Really? Thatís not at all practical and basically irrelevant with regards to actually playing a draw shot.
  
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  (#53)
SFC9ball
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07-17-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Ugh, relative to center ball based on the angle of the cue. Really? Thatís not at all practical and basically irrelevant with regards to actually playing a draw shot.
What Patrick has stated is true.


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  (#54)
Shuddy
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07-17-2019, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFC9ball View Post
What Patrick has stated is true.
I don’t believe I said it wasn’t true, did I?

EDIT: If we’re going beyond terse replies: Relative to the bed of the table, you can’t hit as low on the cueball with an elevated cue as you can with a cue closer to parallel to the table. In other words, with a more horizontal cue you are able to contact the cueball closer to the cloth than with an elevated cue. This was important in my original post because it relates to ability to cue through the ball, accuracy, power. And as Dave mentioned, you’re no longer driving the cueball into the bed of the table.

Last edited by Shuddy; 07-17-2019 at 10:29 AM.
  
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  (#55)
mikepage
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07-17-2019, 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
You'd have to do something pretty weird with your stroke for that to happen before hitting the CB.

I don't think a closed bridge fixes any common stroke flaw - "closed bridge works better for draw" is a myth.

chgo
During our normal sort of vacation conversation, our family debated whether requiring all drivers drive without seatbelts might reduce traffic deaths.

Wearing seatbelts there might be 1000 accidents per xxxxx miles driven with 30 of them fatal. Without seat belts, the percentage of accidents that are fatal might go up, but if the number of accidents goes down by a bigger factor (because drivers feeling vulnerable remain more focussed and allow fewer distractions) there might be a net win.

If using an open bridge on a power draw shot causes an aware shooter to be more cognizant of staying down and avoiding extraneous motion, maybe there is a net win.


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  (#56)
Patrick Johnson
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07-17-2019, 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
...with a more horizontal cue you are able to contact the cueball closer to the cloth than with an elevated cue.
Which, of course, is irrelevant to how much draw you can get.

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  (#57)
Shuddy
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07-17-2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Which, of course, is irrelevant to how much draw you can get.

pj
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Youíre joking right? Youíre telling me the ability to cue parallel to the table has no impact on how much draw you can get?
  
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  (#58)
Bob Jewett
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07-17-2019, 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
Youíre joking right? Youíre telling me the ability to cue parallel to the table has no impact on how much draw you can get?
The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is determined by how far off center you hit and the speed of the stick at the time of impact. Or at least that's what I believe. Do you believe something else?


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  (#59)
Patrick Johnson
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07-17-2019, 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
...with a more horizontal cue you are able to contact the cueball closer to the cloth than with an elevated cue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Which, of course, is irrelevant to how much draw you can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuddy View Post
You’re telling me the ability to cue parallel to the table has no impact on how much draw you can get?
No, I'm telling you how close to the cloth you can hit is irrelevant when comparing the effectiveness of different cue elevations.

Maybe focus on what's true instead of who's "winning"...

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  (#60)
dr_dave
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07-17-2019, 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
how close to the cloth you can hit is irrelevant when comparing the effectiveness of different cue elevations.
Again, the following illustration from the cue elevation effects resource page might be helpful.


Any amount of backspin (based on the "tip offset" from center ball) can be produced with any "tip contact point height" on the CB by changing cue elevation.

The exception is when the tip is at the miscue limit with a horizontal cue. Any cue elevation at that tip contact point will result in a miscue.

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Dave
  
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