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jtaylor996
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07-17-2019, 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Well stated. FYI, I've added a partial quote of your post on the advantages of an open bridge resource page.


That is my experience as well; although, I think the open bridge is slightly better since there is less friction.

Regards,
Dave
OMG, I'm famous now! It almost makes up for all those shots I still miss
  
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07-17-2019, 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor996 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Well stated. FYI, I've added a partial quote of your post on the advantages of an open bridge resource page.


That is my experience as well; although, I think the open bridge is slightly better since there is less friction.
OMG, I'm famous now! It almost makes up for all those shots I still miss
Wait a minute.

You miss shots?

I might need to take down your quote.

Regards,
Dave

PS: ...just kidding.
  
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  (#63)
BC21
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07-17-2019, 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is determined by how far off center you hit and the speed of the stick at the time of impact. Or at least that's what I believe. Do you believe something else?
What about this: Two draw shots, same cue stick speed, same off center hit, but one cue stick is more or less level and the other is jacked up at about 30. Would the jacked up cue stroke produce less draw due to the downward force driving the ob more toward the slate? It seems you'd have to hit the jacked up shot firmer to get the same draw action you'd get using a more level stroke.


POOLOLOGY
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07-17-2019, 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
The amount of spin you get on the cue ball is determined by how far off center you hit and the speed of the stick at the time of impact. Or at least that's what I believe. Do you believe something else?
What about this: Two draw shots, same cue stick speed, same off center hit, but one cue stick is more or less level and the other is jacked up at about 30. Would the jacked up cue stroke produce less draw due to the downward force driving the ob more toward the slate? It seems you'd have to hit the jacked up shot firmer to get the same draw action you'd get using a more level stroke.
You should also add: no cut angle, with straight-back draw.

Bob is right that the amount of spin you can impart to the CB only depends on the speed and tip offset from center. However, with a jacked-up shot, some of that spin is lost as the CB is driven down into the table. So there would be less draw with the jacked-up shot (unless more cue speed is used). For those who don't believe this, it is explained and proven here:

draw show physics-based advice

Regards,
Dave
  
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  (#65)
Shuddy
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07-17-2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
No, I'm telling you how close to the cloth you can hit is irrelevant when comparing the effectiveness of different cue elevations.

Maybe focus on what's true instead of who's "winning"...

pj
chgo
Im not focusing on winning. Im focusing on practical application. For multiple reasons, playing with your cue parallel to the table is preferable to playing jacked up. Im also not ignoring the huge piece of slate beneath my hand. You cant practically apply just as much draw to a cueball jacked up, as you can parallel to the table.

If I asked any reasonable human being, pool player or not, to hit low on the cueball, they would imagine that point on the cueball relative to the bed of the table, not relative to the angle of their cue.

I think this is an issue of semantics and perspective. I consider a draw shot and its effectiveness based on its reaction after contact with the object ball. If I elevate my cue high enough, Im now talking about masses and not thinking about the term draw shot.

My original point that included the comment about hitting low on the cueball was surrounded by a bunch of other statements based on the perspective of playing the most effective draw shot as judged by the action of the cueball after contact with the object ball. And that is how Dave judged the effectiveness of the draw shot in his video.
  
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Bob Jewett
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07-17-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
You should also add: no cut angle, with straight-back draw.

Bob is right that the amount of spin you can impart to the CB only depends on the speed and tip offset from center. However, with a jacked-up shot, some of that spin is lost as the CB is driven down into the table. So there would be less draw with the jacked-up shot (unless more cue speed is used). For those who don't believe this, it is explained and proven here:

draw show physics-based advice

Regards,
Dave
I think it's important to point out that while the actual amount of backspin is less due to friction on the cloth, the forward speed of the cue ball is reduced by more so the spin/speed ratio is increased. In effect you have "more draw" buy what you really have is quite a bit less speed. But this is only a significant factor when you are quite a bit higher than most people go when the are jacked up. This is illustrated in the OP video with "quick draw" shots.


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  (#67)
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07-18-2019, 07:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I have just recently noticed that on power draw shots (and maybe other power shots?)
some very good snooker players bend the cue down for the power stroke. Presumably they do this by torquing their grip
hand to press the shaft onto the bridge. I have not seen this technique discussed in print. You need the right camera angle to see this,
but sometimes they show from the back and along the line of the cue stick, more or less. Or maybe I'm seeing things.
That would be interesting if it's sort of common (but unwritten) knowledge for snooker players.
I wonder if that's actively taught or if players just instinctively do it because they're committed to the open bridge,
and felt they needed a different 'band-aid' than the closed bridge.

I press downward a bit with open bridge rail shots, where the CB is near the cushion. It was something I was taught.
Now that my stroke is (in theory) steadier than it was when I learned that trick decades ago,
I wonder if I could/should discontinue it.
  
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dr_dave
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07-18-2019, 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
You should also add: no cut angle, with straight-back draw.

Bob is right that the amount of spin you can impart to the CB only depends on the speed and tip offset from center. However, with a jacked-up shot, some of that spin is lost as the CB is driven down into the table. So there would be less draw with the jacked-up shot (unless more cue speed is used). For those who don't believe this, it is explained and proven here:

draw show physics-based advice
I think it's important to point out that while the actual amount of backspin is less due to friction on the cloth, the forward speed of the cue ball is reduced by more so the spin/speed ratio is increased. In effect you have "more draw" buy what you really have is quite a bit less speed. But this is only a significant factor when you are quite a bit higher than most people go when the are jacked up. This is illustrated in the OP video with "quick draw" shots.
Good points Bob.

For straight-back draw, jacking up the cue results in less backspin and less draw (for a given cue speed and tip offset from center). For those who want proof, it is available on the draw shot physics-based advice resource page.

With a cut angle, cue elevation (only above about 20) can result in draw at a steeper angle. For those interested, this is covered in detail on the quick draw resource page.

Regards,
Dave
  
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07-18-2019, 09:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtaylor996 View Post
I'd say no. I played open bridge most of my life, and closed for about the last 2 years, and I think I may switch back.

The reason why is that there are more variables with your finger/hand position involved in making a closed bridge. If your index finger is not in the exact same place or moves at all during the stroke, then the shaft will shift.

The shaft is riding on/against more surfaces on a closed bridge, so that means more surfaces have to get in and remain in perfect alignment for consistency.

I think moving forward I'm going to use open except: getting very low on the ball and rail shots. I did a bunch of experimenting last night for a couple of hours, and this is what I've decided is going to work best for me moving forward.

Power draw has 0% to do with the bridge for me. It's all follow through and acceleration on the stroke, in my experience. I get exactly the same amount of draw on those shots open or closed, as I tested last night.
Did your change between bridges have anything to do with changing shafts? Like going to an LD shaft from a regular one?

I made the change from an open bridge to a closed bridge when I went to a lower deflection shaft due to power draws, force follow and rail shots to keep control of the bounce and vibrations of the shaft (after cueball contact) under control.
  
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07-18-2019, 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevoka View Post
Did your change between bridges have anything to do with changing shafts? Like going to an LD shaft from a regular one?

I made the change from an open bridge to a closed bridge when I went to a lower deflection shaft due to power draws, force follow and rail shots to keep control of the bounce and vibrations of the shaft (after cueball contact) under control.
The bouncing and vibration of the shaft after the hit doesn't bother me because I know it is not occurring until the CB is already gone. For visual proof, check out the 2:32 point in part 2 of:

NV B.96 Grip and bridge technique and advice

Regards,
Dave
  
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jtaylor996
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07-18-2019, 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevoka View Post
Did your change between bridges have anything to do with changing shafts? Like going to an LD shaft from a regular one?

I made the change from an open bridge to a closed bridge when I went to a lower deflection shaft due to power draws, force follow and rail shots to keep control of the bounce and vibrations of the shaft (after cueball contact) under control.
Not for me, I've been on LD (Z or Z2) for the last 13 years or even more.
  
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07-18-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
The bouncing and vibration of the shaft after the hit doesn't bother me because I know it is not occurring until the CB is already gone. For visual proof, check out the 2:32 point in part 2 of:

NV B.96 – Grip and bridge technique and advice

Regards,
Dave
It's surprising how much you can ignore once you know it doesn't matter. It's rare that I even notice any more when my shaft jumps out of my open bridge.

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07-19-2019, 05:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
The bouncing and vibration of the shaft after the hit doesn't bother me because I know it is not occurring until the CB is already gone. For visual proof, check out the 2:32 point in part 2 of:

NV B.96 Grip and bridge technique and advice

Regards,
Dave
I know it does not matter.

But it bugged the hell out me.
  
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07-19-2019, 10:06 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Good stuff here, Dave, and in general, I agree.

To dismiss this point with the comment that your observation doesn't apply if one has stroke flaws is to sidestep reality. In my estimation, 99% of all people who play pool once a week or more have stroke flaws and 99% of them will have them for the remainder of their pool-playing lives.

No myth here.
SJM - I’m curious, why you believe that 99% will have stroke flaws for the rest of their pool-playing lives? Do you believe stroke flaws are nearly impossible to correct? If so, would you please elaborate as to why?

Last edited by aaronataylor; 07-19-2019 at 10:12 PM.
  
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07-20-2019, 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I just posted a new YouTube video that demonstrates and debunks the following Top 10 common pool and billiard myths and misconceptions:

1 - If you elevate the cue, you get more draw.
2 - A closed bridge is better for draw shots.
3 - Sidespin affects the path the CB takes off the OB.
4 - A swooping or swiping stroke can apply more sidespin.
5 - LD shafts allow you to put more spin on the ball.
6 - Throw is not important in pool.
7 - Spin transfer is not important in pool.
8 - More spin creates more SIT.
9 - The stroke type changes the shot action.
10 - Finding your dominant eye is important.

Check it out. Here it is:

NV J.25 Top 10 Pool and Billiard Myths Busted and Debunked

It is part of my recent Top 10 series.

Enjoy,
Dave
FYI, Myth 3 resulted in a lot of discussion and debate on YouTube and Facebook, so I decided to do a follow-up video. Check it out:

NV J.26 Cue Ball Control Subtleties Pool Myth Follow-up

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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