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06-24-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The only reason it seems like that is because the CTE "controversy" has crowded out every other topic here. I predict that with it gone we'd see much more constructive conversation about other methods.

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  (#182)
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06-24-2019, 02:46 PM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
It is also worth pointing out that everyone's perceptions will be different.

Not only because they process the visuals differently but also because they're looking at the balls and table from different physical perspectives. IOWs you're not going to see what I see nor what someone else sees.

Lou Figueroa
Back up your theories with some evidence. You are making a blanket claim that basically states no one could possibly be successful with any aiming system because we all see differently. Yes we all have our own vision centers and we've all learned to aim balls different ways, but it is also possible to train a person to see perspectives in a specific way. It may be harder for some than others, depending on how they aim and how deeply rooted in what they do, and how willing they are to try a new perspective on aiming.


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06-24-2019, 02:51 PM

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Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
I'd be on board with forum specifically for CTE. Then you can be constructive with other aiming methods, and stay out of the CTE forum. But, do you really think that would happen? I get the feeling you (and others) are here specifically to troll CTE threads. There wouldn't be a CTE "controversy" if it weren't for about 4 of 5 specific people.
Are you serious?

The 4 or 5 people telling the truth are NOT the Controversy. Do you have any idea how many have been run off into silence who think exactly the same way that we do... because of the 'attacks' way laid upon them for speaking their minds?

The "Controversy" is because of an outrages declaration that is blatantly inaccurate that was made by One Man & then Believed by Several Members here.

Why is it that Joe Tucker has no problem or Eekkes or Jimmy Reid or any one else who has put out an aiming method?

It is THEY have not made any Outrages Assertion that is Inaccurate about the "nature" of their methods.

THAT is why there is NO Controversy regarding their methods.
  
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  (#184)
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06-24-2019, 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
Back up your theories with some evidence. You are making a blanket claim that basically states no one could possibly be successful with any aiming system because we all see differently. Yes we all have our own vision centers and we've all learned to aim balls different ways, but it is also possible to train a person to see perspectives in a specific way. It may be harder for some than others, depending on how they aim and how deeply rooted in what they do, and how willing they are to try a new perspective on aiming.
Well, since you asked.......https://www.simplypsychology.org/perceptual-set.html

You bias, prejudices, emotions are influencing your perception.

In other words......CTE only works because you want it too.
  
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06-24-2019, 02:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The only reason it seems like that is because the CTE "controversy" has crowded out every other topic here. I predict that with it gone we'd see much more constructive conversation about other methods.

pj
chgo
ROTFLMAO! What a crock of crap!

You can't STAY OUT of a CTE thread and haven't for 21 years! You either start them with some trolling bait or jump into each and every one.

NOTHING is holding you or anyone else back from starting a thread about ANY aiming system RIGHT NOW. PLEASE DO.

I/we PROMISE to stay out. Lets see how far it gets into depth. LMAO.
  
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06-24-2019, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
Well, since you asked.......https://www.simplypsychology.org/perceptual-set.html

You bias, prejudices, emotions are influencing your perception.

In other words......CTE only works because you want it too.
I just scanned the first few sentences.

I have said that they are full of Confirmation Bias. It does not take having science education to see the truth. It just takes some unbiased objective common sense with NO ulterior motive nor agenda.

Best Wishes.
  
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  (#187)
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06-24-2019, 03:09 PM

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Originally Posted by cookie man View Post
One. And every time you move the OB a different one.
Let's stick with the familiar "3 similar shots" scenario - the same distance between CB & OB and the same "perception" for each shot, but at slightly different locations on the table, so slightly different cut angles.

But since the balls don't change in relation to each other, let's move the pocket instead of the balls (presumably you agree that's equivalent).

Can the CTE line touch different spots on the OB now?

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  (#188)
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06-24-2019, 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Let's stick with the familiar "3 similar shots" scenario - the same distance between CB & OB and the same "perception" for each shot, but at slightly different locations on the table, so slightly different cut angles.

But since the balls don't change in relation to each other, let's move the pocket instead of the balls (presumably you agree that's equivalent).

Can the CTE line touch different spots on the OB now?

pj
chgo


If you mean rotate the table underneath the balls, sure. But (according to Stan) the pockets being at right angles on the corners of two adjacent squares is part of the perception equation. I have no way to test this, I only have a 2x1 regulation shape pool table. I can however, verify it works on the playing surface 99.99% of us play on.


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  (#189)
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06-24-2019, 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Let's stick with the familiar "3 similar shots" scenario - the same distance between CB & OB and the same "perception" for each shot, but at slightly different locations on the table, so slightly different cut angles.

But since the balls don't change in relation to each other, let's move the pocket instead of the balls (presumably you agree that's equivalent).

Can the CTE line touch different spots on the OB now?

pj
chgo
Can't do that. Pool is played on a rectangular 2X1 surface......or 2 perfect squares with 8 right angles (6 pockets).

An experienced player will recognize the majority of shots at the moment of address, and the brain will immediately start breaking it down in terms of approx cut angle, tangent line, etc for a 2X1 surface......sort of like what Virtual Pool does for you with the lines. If you have a 1/2 ball hit on an OB that is 6" away from the corner pocket sitting straight out from the mouth of the pocket, and you line up with 1 tip low and 1 tip running english, your brain is mapping out the path of the CB knowing that you're gonna swing around 2 rails and land between the far side and corner pockets on the same side of the table (with medium speed hit) even though you're looking in the opposite direction . If you change your mind and shift the tip placement in any direction, your brain is mapping out the changes in real time as you do this, just like the VP software does.

For many players the eyes will also immediately dial in to what works best for the given shot. So like the Virtual Pool reference, if you started slowly moving the pocket to the left or right, the brain would immediately start processing the new data, including increasing or decreasing one eye over the other. So perhaps, yes, the CTE line probably could touch different spots on the OB if the pocket were moved......would you make the ball, who knows. CTE works great for 2X1 surfaces, though.

Last edited by DTL; 06-24-2019 at 03:59 PM.
  
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06-24-2019, 04:34 PM

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Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
If you mean rotate the table underneath the balls, sure.
Yes, I mean recreate the exact same three similar shots by moving the table & pocket rather than the balls - so it's crystal clear that nothing has changed with the balls themselves.

Quote:
But (according to Stan) the pockets being at right angles on the corners of two adjacent squares is part of the perception equation.
It's the same table and the balls are in exactly the same positions for the three shots as they would be if we moved the balls instead. All the numerological hocus pocus still applies exactly as before.

If I read Cookie right he believes there's now a different CTE line. I'm making sure we're talking about the same thing.

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  (#191)
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06-24-2019, 04:35 PM

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Originally Posted by DTL View Post
Can't do that. Pool is played on a rectangular 2X1 surface......or 2 perfect squares with 8 right angles (6 pockets).
None of that changes - read my reply to mohrt above.

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  (#192)
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06-24-2019, 04:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Yes, I mean recreate the exact same three similar shots by moving the table & pocket rather than the balls - so it's crystal clear that nothing has changed with the balls themselves.





It's the same table and the balls are in exactly the same positions for the three shots as they would be if we moved the balls instead. All the numerological hocus pocus still applies exactly as before.



If I read Cookie right he believes there's now a different CTE line. I'm making sure we're talking about the same thing.



pj

chgo


If you move the table, youíll still have to re-address the balls for the new perception. You donít set the perception then move the table. Although it would be an interesting experiment. Yes we know, science says balls didnít move. You also use an inadequate set of variables for the perceptions.

Hereís another test to consider. Surround yourself in a curtain where no rails or pockets are visible. Now what happens at different orientations? I would think in this case the same result happens on any shot, which would not align to pockets. Not a very useful test, but would still be interesting.


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06-24-2019, 04:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
None of that changes - read my reply to mohrt above.

pj
chgo

If I get what you're saying, in my mind it wouldn't change anything.

Problem is, we'll never be able to test this using someone who has never played pool, one who's brain doesn't immediately starts processing visual data at light speed at address, without all that bias .......meaning you'll never find a proficient player who has never played.
  
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  (#194)
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06-24-2019, 05:05 PM

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Originally Posted by mohrt View Post
Back up your theories with some evidence. You are making a blanket claim that basically states no one could possibly be successful with any aiming system because we all see differently. Yes we all have our own vision centers and we've all learned to aim balls different ways, but it is also possible to train a person to see perspectives in a specific way. It may be harder for some than others, depending on how they aim and how deeply rooted in what they do, and how willing they are to try a new perspective on aiming.

lol, really?

Here's my proof: go to a pool table, take out your cell phone, and go turn on the camera function.

You with me so far?

Set up any shot you want and look at your screen. Now move the camera to compensate for someone taller, and then someone shorter than you. Then move the camera closer or farther away from the table to compensate for someone who stands closer or farther from the table to visualize a shot. Lastly, move from left to right. It won't take much to see the "visual" change to reflect someone who prefers to stand a little more to the right or left of a shot.

All those are different perceptions of the same shot.

AND I did not say no one could be successful with an aiming system. What I was saying is that it is foolish to base an aiming system on everyone seeing the shots in exactly the same way.

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  (#195)
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06-24-2019, 05:35 PM

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Originally Posted by duckie View Post
CTE only works because you want it too.
It sounds like you're saying CTE doesn't really "work". I don't believe that - I'm sure it works for its users as well as all the other aiming methods work for their users.

It's how it works that's the main bone of contention here - is the usual amount of "skilled estimation" required or not? CTE claims to be the exception to that rule - some of us think that's a fantastical enough claim to warrant questioning, especially for a commercial product.

But that's a different topic than whether or not it's a useful aiming system. I think it's as good as any system and has some interesting non-fantastic features, like the aim-&-anchor (ABC/CTE) reference lines and the small pivot as a focusing mechanism (see the "Fractions With Pivots" thread).

Pointing out the fantastical nature of some of the claims about how it works can sound like criticizing the whole system - I don't mean it that way. I think CTE can seriously work as an effective aiming aid - unfortunately, I think its fantastical "packaging" obscures that.

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