(pro) stroke

evergruven · Jul 22, 2020

watching accu-stats and elsewhere
I hear commentators single out players for their "stroke"
I suppose there are fewer variables to contend with at the pro level
so out of those
what factors make one player able to draw two table lengths, etc.
and one player not?

bbb · Jul 22, 2020

Timing and accurate hit

BilliardsAbout · Jul 22, 2020

evergruven said:
watching accu-stats and elsewhere
I hear commentators single out players for their "stroke"
I suppose there are fewer variables to contend with at the pro level
so out of those
what factors make one player able to draw two table lengths, etc.
and one player not?

Chalking properly (too much almost as bad as too little), gentle grip and smooth stroke, acceleration, accurate hit on cue ball (no unwanted sidespin or jump, etc.) -- for long draw.

Patrick Johnson · Jul 22, 2020

evergruven said:
what factors make one player able to draw two table lengths, etc. and one player not?

bbb said:
Timing and accurate hit

BilliardsAbout said:
Chalking properly (too much almost as bad as too little), gentle grip and smooth stroke, acceleration, accurate hit on cue ball (no unwanted sidespin or jump, etc.)

I think the direct answer is "hitting the CB accurately at high speed".

How to do that ("timing", grip, smooth stroke/acceleration, etc.) are techniques (among others) to help achieve that "simple" outcome.

pj
chgo

FranCrimi · Jul 22, 2020

New cloth. :grin: Hey. I kid you not. Even the best players can't necessarily draw like a powerhouse on badly worn cloth, but when the cloth is new --- you'll get more than you ask for every time. Try it.

evergruven · Jul 22, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
I think the direct answer is "hitting the CB accurately at high speed".

How to do that ("timing", grip, smooth stroke/acceleration, etc.) are techniques (among others) to help achieve that "simple" outcome.

pj
chgo

thanks all for the replies
so now that we know what it takes
why is it that some players do this better than others?

seems like a relatively benign question
but in pool, balls are still
and
we have much time and space to set up, and execute
y'know?

Bob Jewett · Jul 22, 2020

evergruven said:
... why is it that some players do this better than others?
...

Why do some kids get picked last for dodgeball? Why can a few people do math and the rest fail? Why can't some people smell asparagus pee?

Or are you asking for a list of mistakes pool players make in their training when trying to get better?

evergruven · Jul 22, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
Why do some kids get picked last for dodgeball? Why can a few people do math and the rest fail? Why can't some people smell asparagus pee?

Or are you asking for a list of mistakes pool players make in their training when trying to get better?

hi bob
maybe my question isn't easily answered
maybe there are many answers
I just mean to dig a little deeper
see if things can't be broken down further

I'll try a slightly different question
if it's not so much a matter of practice
sure more couldn't hurt, but pros got their "ten thousand" hours in
if we have time, etc. to shoot- pool is proactive
why is it easier for some players to execute certain shots?

I posted elsewhere recently about "straight shooters"
why does shotmaking to jason and josh et al. appear so easy?
something they're born with? what is it?
etc.

thanks,
sean <<<--can smell his own pee, but wasn't picked last for dodgeball because he spent more time goofing off than studying maths

Bob Jewett · Jul 22, 2020

evergruven said:
hi bob
maybe my question isn't easily answered
maybe there are many answers
I just mean to dig a little deeper
...

Then I urge you to read "The Sports Gene" which I've recommended on here several times before.

evergruven · Jul 22, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
Then I urge you to read "The Sports Gene" which I've recommended on here several times before.

bob, I don't recall that title so I must have missed it
thanks for the reminder
adding to my (ever-growing) list ^_^

BilliardsAbout · Jul 23, 2020

evergruven said:
hi bob
maybe my question isn't easily answered
maybe there are many answers
I just mean to dig a little deeper
see if things can't be broken down further

I'll try a slightly different question
if it's not so much a matter of practice
sure more couldn't hurt, but pros got their "ten thousand" hours in
if we have time, etc. to shoot- pool is proactive
why is it easier for some players to execute certain shots?

I posted elsewhere recently about "straight shooters"
why does shotmaking to jason and josh et al. appear so easy?
something they're born with? what is it?
etc.

thanks,
sean <<<--can smell his own pee, but wasn't picked last for dodgeball because he spent more time goofing off than studying maths

IMHO, started pool right by design or luck, don't have obstacles to overcome--wrong aim, poked stroke, etc. ingrained from years of bad play.

Eliminating the obvious--many hours of dedicated, focused practice and play for the best players, it is untrue that above-average hand-eye coordination or athleticism is needed for very good pool. It's not like we have to run across a tennis court or track a 60-m.p.h. curve ball.

Other teachers and I have seen students get to very high levels by overcoming bad habits. Above that, pros and aspiring pros have to put in many extra hours and drills.

BC21 · Jul 23, 2020

FranCrimi said:
New cloth. :grin: Hey. I kid you not. Even the best players can't necessarily draw like a powerhouse on badly worn cloth, but when the cloth is new --- you'll get more than you ask for every time. Try it.

Absolutely! And I've found that it hurts me more often than it helps me. Drawing 3 feet when you wanted 1 foot is not fun.

app4dstn · Jul 23, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
Why do some kids get picked last for dodgeball? Why can a few people do math and the rest fail? Why can't some people smell asparagus pee?

Or are you asking for a list of mistakes pool players make in their training when trying to get better?

Bob Jewett said:
Then I urge you to read "The Sports Gene" which I've recommended on here several times before.

I read this based upon your recommendation and loved it.

Though I will say, given the topic at hand, I didn’t find the silver bullet that turned on the light and propelled me to world class. In fact it was quite humbling. It gave me a better perspective of myself.

As you say, optimizing training for the self is the way to reaching my potential, wherever that may lie.

Still pushing, but with a different perspective (and intensity) than when I started. More realistically. And in a way more satisfying. Less wondering, more accepting.

Btw, began to follow Castor Semenya after reading and felt like I had great background as her story was in the news a while back. Thanks again and please keep sharing your reading list!

<<< Berkeley-born (College Ave.)

FranCrimi · Jul 23, 2020

BC21 said:
Absolutely! And I've found that it hurts me more often than it helps me. Drawing 3 feet when you wanted 1 foot is not fun.

I believe it. The pros play on new cloth a lot because of the tournaments they play in so they've learned how to adjust. New cloth will make a player look even more like a superstar on those big draw shots. Corey Duel's famous length of the table draw shot comes to mind. I don't think it would've looked nearly as spectacular if the cloth wasn't new.

Geosnooker · Jul 23, 2020

Depends a lot on the table. I personally might do a three foot draw no more than once in a half dozen snooker games. I can pot an 8 foot shot 9 of 10 times but maybe 60% on a 5 footer using draw.

So part of my draw limitation is just not trying It much over the decades. I find it hard to control speed. I get better results using rails, etc for position.

If you watch the top Snooker players You will see quite a variation in the use of draw.. Players like John Higgins and Mark Williams use rails. O'Sullivan will draw with spooky accuracy. Judd Trump Will use draw on an 8 footer And literally bring the ball back.

Anyways hard to say that great a draw stroke is the sign of a pro as many excellent snooker players rarely use it except for short jabs of a foot or so draw..

evergruven · Jul 23, 2020

BilliardsAbout said:
Eliminating the obvious--many hours of dedicated, focused practice and play for the best players, it is untrue that above-average hand-eye coordination or athleticism is needed for very good pool. It's not like we have to run across a tennis court or track a 60-m.p.h. curve ball.

exactly..
and as a tennis player, I see for myself
there are several physical variables
that don't appear to apply to pool
so I asked why some pros could do it
and some couldn't.

garczar · Jul 24, 2020

evergruven said:
watching accu-stats and elsewhere
I hear commentators single out players for their "stroke"
I suppose there are fewer variables to contend with at the pro level
so out of those
what factors make one player able to draw two table lengths, etc.
and one player not?

You're basing this on a couple matches you've watched? How much pro-level pool have you seen? Almost all top players i've seen over the last 40yrs could draw the piss out of the cueball when needed. Certain conditions yield more draw naturally but good players can draw the rock for all the reasons others have listed here.

BilliardsAbout · Jul 24, 2020

evergruven said:
exactly..
and as a tennis player, I see for myself
there are several physical variables
that don't appear to apply to pool
so I asked why some pros could do it
and some couldn't.

Between pros, it was likely someone executed in a match you watched and someone else did not, or they chose a different position for the c.b. and you thought they could not . . . ?

Tony_in_MD · Jul 24, 2020

Not only new cloth, but the TV table @ the US Open, had a bank of lights that threw off a lot of heat on the table, drying out the cloth, and making it even faster.

FranCrimi said:
I believe it. The pros play on new cloth a lot because of the tournaments they play in so they've learned how to adjust. New cloth will make a player look even more like a superstar on those big draw shots. Corey Duel's famous length of the table draw shot comes to mind. I don't think it would've looked nearly as spectacular if the cloth wasn't new.

FranCrimi · Jul 24, 2020

Tony_in_MD said:
Not only new cloth, but the TV table @ the US Open, had a bank of lights that threw off a lot of heat on the table, drying out the cloth, and making it even faster.

Yep. Great point. It's a very unique combination of conditions when that happens. The cloth becomes drier and faster due to the heat. But also, the static electricity causes the cloth fibers to stand up more, so very little spin is lost because it kicks in sooner because there's less sliding, thus the backspin kicks in like a rocket.

(pro) stroke

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