Using a bar cue for draw...

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
I happened to be playing some bar pool a while back using a bar cue that had a nice tip but was heavy at the tip end and thick, etc., as most bar cues seem to be.

I had a table-length shot and needed to draw the cueball back to where it started. I fired away and, surprisingly to me, the c/b came back too far with ease. That is, I didn't hit that low or anything that I could tell, but it sure came back easily and far.

Compared to the l/d shaft I usually use, this draw was almost too easy.

What's up with that? Can anyone provide some science to show why this happened?

Thanks,



Jeff Livingston

EDIT: It was a valley cue ball with, I think, the purple logo on it.

EDIT again: The tip was dime-shaped.
 
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MattPoland

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it’s just as simple as the tip held the chalk (the biggest surprise) and you stroked it well. Other than risking miscue, no stick actually makes you draw better than another.


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chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
I think it’s just as simple as the tip held the chalk (the biggest surprise) and you stroked it well. Other than risking miscue, no stick actually makes you draw better than another.


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Thanks for replying.

It wasn't the tip holding chalk. I didn't stroke it THAT well. It was the cue's weight at the tip end. It had to be, as the effortless draw never happens with my l/d cue.

It was almost too easy, you know what I mean. I've hit my million shots and know what I can do and cannot do. The cue was the difference, but why?



Jeff Livingston
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Softer tip means more draw. Softer ferrule same thing.

I've never found a softer tip to help my draw, certainly not to the degree it happened. That might be a PART of it, but certainly not the whole shebang. I use a Triangle medium mostly on my personal cue.

I don't know what a "softer ferrule" is. How would that help a draw shot?

Thanks for the reply,


Jeff Livingston
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
I almost forgot one other thing: The tip was dime shaped, but Dr. Dave, et al, says that doesn't have such dramatic effects on shots. I try to keep my personal tip at close to a nickel shape.


Jeff Livingston
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I think it’s just as simple as the tip held the chalk (the biggest surprise) and you stroked it well. Other than risking miscue, no stick actually makes you draw better than another.


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That has not been my experience with cues, Matt.
I had a cue I could draw 3/4 of a table farther than any other pool cue I’ve owned.
...and I’ve had snooker cues that would just ‘give up’ on power shots.

Pretty sure the difference isn’t weight, I’ve had very strong cues that were ‘dead’.

The shafts I like are usually caromish-tapered and have a ‘flexible strength’.
Most LD shafts, to me, are just flexible....without the guts.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Thanks for replying.

It wasn't the tip holding chalk. I didn't stroke it THAT well. It was the cue's weight at the tip end. It had to be, as the effortless draw never happens with my l/d cue.

It was almost too easy, you know what I mean. I've hit my million shots and know what I can do and cannot do. The cue was the difference, but why?
A coupla wildass guesses:

- using an unfamiliar cue you're paying closer attention to where you're hitting the CB (this is my favorite)

- for the same cue angle the higher squirt shaft simulates a more horizontal cue (a pretty small difference)

- the cue's extra weight overall (not just the tip end) is creating the "extra mass" effect (same stroke speed = more draw spin)

pj
chgo
 
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chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
That has not been my experience with cues, Matt.
I had a cue I could draw 3/4 of a table farther than any other pool cue I’ve owned.
...and I’ve had snooker cues that would just ‘give up’ on power shots.

Pretty sure the difference isn’t weight, I’ve had very strong cues that were ‘dead’.

The shafts I like are usually caromish-tapered and have a ‘flexible strength’.
Most LD shafts, to me, are just flexible....without the guts.

Pt, your experience is coming real close to what I'm trying to convey in this thread. It was as if the cue had magical properties just for draw. It had the old big squirt of heavier ends so I suffered in that area, but when a draw shot was called for, BAM, back it came, just like that.

I used to play with ONLY bar cues...for years and years. I didn't buy my own good personal cue until I was 40 years old or so, so I had to play with bar cues. I don't remember ever getting this easy and good draw with any of those before.

Something in that cue, man, something in it was there, but what? Seriously, what?



Jeff Livingston
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Most bar cues have stiff taper.
Maybe the stiffness helped you.
No pun intended.
 

vasilios

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I happened to be playing some bar pool a while back using a bar cue that had a nice tip but was heavy at the tip end and thick, etc., as most bar cues seem to be.

I had a table-length shot and needed to draw the cueball back to where it started. I fired away and, surprisingly to me, the c/b came back too far with ease. That is, I didn't hit that low or anything that I could tell, but it sure came back easily and far.

Compared to the l/d shaft I usually use, this draw was almost too easy.

What's up with that? Can anyone provide some science to show why this happened?

Thanks,



Jeff Livingston

EDIT: It was a valley cue ball with, I think, the purple logo on it.

EDIT again: The tip was dime-shaped.

You did the shootin -
How come you can't figure out what the diff is -
Seems your stroke is not a issue , you snatched the rock back easily -
put your thinking cap on , work it out -



bill
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Pt, your experience is coming real close to what I'm trying to convey in this thread. It was as if the cue had magical properties just for draw. It had the old big squirt of heavier ends so I suffered in that area, but when a draw shot was called for, BAM, back it came, just like that.

I used to play with ONLY bar cues...for years and years. I didn't buy my own good personal cue until I was 40 years old or so, so I had to play with bar cues. I don't remember ever getting this easy and good draw with any of those before.

Something in that cue, man, something in it was there, but what? Seriously, what?



Jeff Livingston

The dime-shaped tip had a lot to do with it also, IMO.
With a flat tip, the contact point is putting pressure on the SIDE of the shaft....
...with dime-shape, the pressure on the shaft is closer to the center, therefore the strength
of the shaft is used.

I could do a bunch of fancy power spin shots that Jimmy Moore showed me...
....sometimes a guy will hand me his cue and ask me to try it....
....if the tip is too flat, I won’t even attempt it.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The dime-shaped tip had a lot to do with it also, IMO.
With a flat tip, the contact point is putting pressure on the SIDE of the shaft....
...with dime-shape, the pressure on the shaft is closer to the center, therefore the strength
of the shaft is used.

I could do a bunch of fancy power spin shots that Jimmy Moore showed me...
....sometimes a guy will hand me his cue and ask me to try it....
....if the tip is too flat, I won’t even attempt it.
I think it's relevant too, maybe because of greater gripping area / less micro-slippage - especially at the extreme (like a draw shot).

pj
chgo
 
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chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Most bar cues have stiff taper.
Maybe the stiffness helped you.
No pun intended.

It's been so long since I played with such a cue, maybe my stroke has improved enough to seemingly make it easy now. I have some Valley cues at home in my rack, I think I'll do some experiments with those and see if I can get the same effect. I'll take one down to dime shape, maybe add just a touch of weight to the ferrule area and see what happens.

Maybe Dr. Dave can chime in and tell us of videos he has done that explain all this?

Stiffness, as you spoke about, has only gotten me into trouble, btw. :wink: At my age now, I'd welcome some of that.


Jeff Livingston
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
You did the shootin -
How come you can't figure out what the diff is -
Seems your stroke is not a issue , you snatched the rock back easily -
put your thinking cap on , work it out -



bill

Thank you for the reply.

I'm doing exactly that, but geeeeeeeez, can't someone else do all the work and I can just take what I need from that? Do I have to actually train and practice and experiment? So unfair.;)



Jeff Livingston
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
The dime-shaped tip had a lot to do with it also, IMO.
With a flat tip, the contact point is putting pressure on the SIDE of the shaft....
...with dime-shape, the pressure on the shaft is closer to the center, therefore the strength
of the shaft is used.

I could do a bunch of fancy power spin shots that Jimmy Moore showed me...
....sometimes a guy will hand me his cue and ask me to try it....
....if the tip is too flat, I won’t even attempt it.

Dr Dave says 'no' to that, iirc.

I hope it turns out to be just the tip shape....that'd be the easy way to exploit it.


Jeff Livingston
 

overlord

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's been so long since I played with such a cue, maybe my stroke has improved enough to seemingly make it easy now. I have some Valley cues at home in my rack, I think I'll do some experiments with those and see if I can get the same effect. I'll take one down to dime shape, maybe add just a touch of weight to the ferrule area and see what happens.

Maybe Dr. Dave can chime in and tell us of videos he has done that explain all this?

Stiffness, as you spoke about, has only gotten me into trouble, btw. :wink: At my age now, I'd welcome some of that.


Jeff Livingston

Cloth has a lot to do with draw too. I once played in a pool room where they mistakenly put billiard cloth on the pool tables and I could draw the ball three rails.
 

vasilios

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you for the reply.

I'm doing exactly that, but geeeeeeeez, can't someone else do all the work and I can just take what I need from that? Do I have to actually train and practice and experiment? So unfair.;)



Jeff Livingston

no no no !
this is when you have to think -
practice and experiment - bah - you can snatch the rock !
you have played plenty and with diff equipment -- now time to sort to a conclusion -
get on with it - :thumbup:




bill
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
That three rail draw off the long short long back to same corner......every cue I’ve ever owned I’ve hit that shot to half table to the end hole....57 1/2” fat Harvey Martin.....I snatched the chit out of it 1st try and went a quarter of way back up after cornering it. I put it back in the case and it’s been napping ever since.

With great power comes great responsibility and I sought to spare the world that kinda doom. 🤣.

One of the above isn’t true. The rest is lol


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