American 14.1 Straight Pool 2018

justnum

justnum

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The point about it not being as tough is good but back in that day, the amount of travelling to the event is lower. The greats were all American born and played in American time zones.

Today people are traveling internationally and have to adjust for jet lag and cultural differences, on top of the language barrier.

Today we are seeing great players under challenging conditions.
Back then it was greats playing well rested and in comfortable surroundings.

The tournament performances may not be where they were, but the conditions to get to the tournament are harder.

They are basically playing sleep deprived or using sleep aids.

The players from overseas all have some English that works. If players from yesteryear traveled overseas, I doubt they'd speak any Russian, Polish, German, Tagalog, Finnish, Deutsche, Portuguese, Spanish or Italian.

Today's generation of pool players are more well rounded outside of pool. If the 14.1 ever became a travelling international tournament then we'd have better data for comparison. But comparing American players at American tournaments to International players playing in American tournaments is not a fair comparison.



sjm said:
John's right in suggesting that there are more very straight shooters than ever before, and that's why I mentioned in my evaluation of today's top 14.1 players that I'd restrict my analysis to those that had already shown strong in the discipline and that I was omitting the really straight shooters that didn't play much 14.1, who always posed a threat to the top 14.1 players.

The straightest shooters who don't play much 14.1, and Kaci is certainly counted among them, are always a threat, regardless of who they draw.

Still, I'm not buying the "it's never been tougher" part of John's statement. Back in the golden age of 14.1, the number of guys that had run 125/150 and out in one inning and out in World Championship play (and, at least for this comparison, I'll count the Dragon event as a world championship) was dozens. Today, extremely few of the competitors have ever done it, and, to my knowledge, not even the undeniably superb Schmidt has managed it.

There are fewer guys who would qualify as world beaters in 14.1 today than back in the day. No, it's not tougher than ever to win, but it's still pretty darn tough.
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sjm

sjm

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justnum said:
The point about it not being as tough is good but back in that day, the amount of travelling to the event is lower. The greats were all American born and played in American time zones.

Today people are traveling internationally and have to adjust for jet lag and cultural differences, on top of the language barrier.

Today we are seeing great players under challenging conditions.
Back then it was greats playing well rested and in comfortable surroundings.

The tournament performances may not be where they were, but the conditions to get to the tournament are harder.

They are basically playing sleep deprived or using sleep aids.

The players from overseas all have some English that works. If players from yesteryear traveled overseas, I doubt they'd speak any Russian, Polish, German, Tagalog, Finnish, Deutsche, Portuguese, Spanish or Italian.

Today's generation of pool players are more well rounded outside of pool. If the 14.1 ever became a travelling international tournament then we'd have better data for comparison. But comparing American players at American tournaments to International players playing in American tournaments is not a fair comparison.
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Thanks for a very well considered and clearly presented post.

The internationalization of the game has made the fields deeper than ever before, but, as you note, it has also brought some unique factors and variables into play. Nonetheless, although this event is a rare exception, very few 14.1 events in America draw anything close to the full complement of European-based stars of 14.1.
 
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justnum

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
I like the way you post too.



sjm said:
Thanks for a very well considered and clearly presented post.

The internationalization of the game has made the fields deeper than ever before, but, as you note, it has also brought some unique factors and variables into play. Nonetheless, although this event is a rare exception, very few 14.1 events in America draw anything close to the full complement European-based stars of 14.1.
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lfigueroa

lfigueroa

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sjm said:
John's right in suggesting that there are more very straight shooters than ever before, and that's why I mentioned in my evaluation of today's top 14.1 players that I'd restrict my analysis to those that had already shown strong in the discipline and that I was omitting the really straight shooters that didn't play much 14.1, who always posed a threat to the top 14.1 players.

The straightest shooters who don't play much 14.1, and Kaci is certainly counted among them, are always a threat, regardless of who they draw.

Still, I'm not buying the "it's never been tougher" part of John's statement. Back in the golden age of 14.1, the number of guys that had run 125/150 and out in one inning and out in World Championship play (and, at least for this comparison, I'll count the Dragon event as a world championship) was dozens. Today, extremely few of the competitors have ever done it, and, to my knowledge, not even the undeniably superb Schmidt has managed it.

There are fewer guys who would qualify as world beaters in 14.1 today than back in the day. No, it's not tougher than ever to win, but it's still pretty darn tough.
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Stu, certainly, back in the day, when major American cities were crawling with 14.1 mechanics, the fields were tougher. I'm guessing JS was just alluding to his experience playing the last couple of decades.

Lou Figueroa
 
sjm

sjm

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lfigueroa said:
Stu, certainly, back in the day, when major American cities were crawling with 14.1 mechanics, the fields were tougher. I'm guessing JS was just alluding to his experience playing the last couple of decades.

Lou Figueroa
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You might be right, Lou. He may have meant that "in my own experience, it's never been tougher." Still, in the last dozen years or so, the toughest 14.1 fields were certainly those found in the 2006-2010 Dragon events, which was then counted as a WPA sanctioned world championship.

When the event then lost it's sanctioning, a lot of the top guys stopped coming to 14.1 events in the US. For example, Darren Appleton, Nick Vandenberg, Niels Feijen, Albin Ouschan and Oliver Ortmann are, arguably, five of the seven best European 14.1 players, but none of them were in this field. The other two, Hohmann and Chinakhov, are in the field.

Even during John's years of participation, things have gotten easier. That said, though, John is absolutely right that the number of eagle-eyed shooters in pro pool has never been greater than it is today.
 
A

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sjm said:
... Darren Appleton, Nick Vandenberg, Niels Feijen, Albin Ouschan and Oliver Ortmann are, arguably, five of the seven best European 14.1 players, but none of them were in this field. The other two, Hohmann and Chinakhov, are in the field. ...
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Don't forget Immonen (who was there this week).
 
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ChrisinNC

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Congrats to Klenti with his win over Thorsten in the finals. Both class players who handled some rough rolls towards the end of that match with total composure in comparison to how many other players I could think of would have behaved. Thorsten really got a terrible roll getting stuck on that last break shot. Happens to me all the time, so it makes me feel a little better!
 
sjm

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ChrisinNC said:
Thorsten really got a terrible roll getting stuck on that last break shot.
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Yes, he got a bad roll, but it was a bad roll (a pretty freaky scratch into the side by Kaci) that, most unexpectedly, gave him one extra chance in a match that looked like it was over.

Kaci deserved this one. Well played!
 
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ChrisinNC

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sjm said:
Yes, he got a bad roll, but it was a bad roll (a pretty freaky scratch into the side by Kaci) that, most unexpectedly, gave him one extra chance in a match that looked like it was over.

Kaci deserved this one. Well played!
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From what I saw, Klenti played very poor position from the 3-ball to the 15-ball, which resulted in a much tougher shot on the 15-ball, and he nearly missed it in the corner, which is the only reason the cue ball even kissed off the 8-ball to scratch in the side. I was impressed by the mutual respect these two players have for each other. Just before that shot, Klenti requested of Thorsten if he could pick up the cue ball to clean it off, which he did by simply placing a piece of chalk next to the cue ball before picking it up to clean it - certainly not a precise method to mark a cue ball to clean it. I just thought that was interesting as to the obvious level of trust and respect shown between the two players at such a crucial moment in the match.
 
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sjm

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ChrisinNC said:
From what I saw, Klenti played very poor position from the 3-ball to the 15-ball, which resulted in a much tougher shot on the 15-ball, and he nearly missed it in the corner, which is the only reason the cue ball even kissed off the 8-ball to scratch in the side. I was impressed by the mutual respect these two players have for each other. Just before that shot, Klenti requested of Thorsten if he could pick up the cue ball to clean it off, which he did by simply placing a piece of chalk next to the cue ball before picking it up to clean it - certainly not a precise method to mark a cue ball to clean it. I just thought that was interesting as to the obvious level of trust and respect shown between the two players at such a crucial moment in the match.
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Point well taken. Agreed that the kiss occurred because Klenti didn't play better shape onto the shot, but scratching at the angle at which the kiss took place was still pretty unlikely.
 
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ChrisinNC

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sjm said:
Point well taken. Agreed that the kiss occurred because Klenti didn't play better shape onto the shot, but scratching at the angle at which the kiss took place was still pretty unlikely.
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Just curious as I assume you watched a lot of matches. It seems of the matches I watched, I very rarely saw any players playing safeties or choosing to play intentional fouls when they ended up with very tough shots. Did you notice that? Do you think that was due to the relatively generous pockets, which made executing a successful safety even tougher while also making being able to successfully pocket a tough shot a bit easier?
 
Bob Jewett

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ChrisinNC said:
Just curious as I assume you watched a lot of matches. It seems of the matches I watched, I very rarely saw any players playing safeties or choosing to play intentional fouls when they ended up with very tough shots. Did you notice that? Do you think that was due to the relatively generous pockets, which made executing a successful safety even tougher while also making being able to successfully pocket a tough shot a bit easier?
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I think that 40 years ago players would rarely shoot at 60% or maybe even 75% shots. I think that strategy was mistaken, usually. If you have a choice between a 60% shot and a safety battle that you are only 50% to win, then take the 60% shot.

Of course if you are always leaving yourself 60% shots, you can't win, but when you find yourself in a tough spot regardless of who put you there, offense may be the best choice.

There are a few other things to consider. If you have no continuation from the tough shot if you make it, but if it rattles and hangs it will give your opponent a good start, then play safe. Ideally play a safe that has no good return, but those are hard to find.

And yes the pockets were easy compared to typical Diamond tables. That makes a lot more tough-looking shots 60% or better.
 
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