Educate Me Please

It's called American Entrepreneurship...............

Kim.

Skippy27 said:

So I hear a lot of talk about this cue and that cue and I am assuming when people talk of a cue they are mainly referring to the bottom half as the shafts are a dime a dozen out there. By that I simply mean there are many brands and designs that fit pretty universally with others bottoms (depending on joint) and any tip can be put on any shaft.

I hear tales of how this one hits better than that one or this one is better then that one because of "X" and it took my game to a new level, etc. But honestly, what is it that makes one cue makers cue better than another that would justify some of the prices being asked for out there?

Is it...
Wood?
Balance?
Taper?
Joint?
Artist Design?

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All the things you mentioned play a part, and the manipulation of all those ingredients, plus a few others give each cuemaker a starting point for his experience to guide him to the kind of cues he wants to make. When a lot of players start agreeing that his formula works for them, you have the basis for rising prices, demand and supply.

You must remember that most custom cuemakers make cues one at a time, making each cue special, and specifically design for that buyer.

Mario

The cue I play with is not very fancy or expensive but it is the best stick in the world because it is what I am comfortable with. Find a stick for whatever reason. Get an extra shaft just like your player in case you lose a tip. Spend whatever you like, $10,000 or $100. Just get used to your player.

I keep hoping to luck into finding a cue maker who would build a solid nothing fancy plane Jane, you know no bells and whistles for under a couple hundred bucks. Not because cues aren't worth every penny they're asking for ( I think they are, they're works of art) but because an expensive cue just isn't in my budget right now.

I play with a plane looking Viking with no wrap and no points which I prefer, went with Viking because It's American made and was in my price range. Really have no complaints but when the times right I want a cue someone built. I cant wait to have a cue in my hand knowing whoever build it was trying to build the best playing cue they could, not someone trying to put out X amount of cues by the end of the day. I also know that's worth way more then a couple hundred bucks

It's all about want versus need. I too would like to build my dream cue one day but I don't know in the end it will hit and feel any better than my production Joss cue which I love. It is absolutely about "the indian not the arrow," as they say.

philly.....the one thing you can be certain of......you can bank on this........if you have your dream cue made exactly the way you want......I'm talking cue specs not the design appearance.......it will definitely play better than your production Joss pool cue or any production pool cue in the world. The elements and design attention that goes into building your dream cue is unmatched by any production pool cue company that assembles cues.

Bavafongoul said:

philly.....the one thing you can be certain of......you can bank on this........if you have your dream cue made exactly the way you want......I'm talking cue specs not the design appearance.......it will definitely play better than your production Joss pool cue or any production pool cue in the world. The elements and design attention that goes into building your dream cue is unmatched by any production pool cue company that assembles cues.

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If you say so. One day, as I said I will opt for a custom to my specifications and I'll find out. Just hope I don't have to wait 5 years. Till then I'm very happy with my player.

It is certainly everything you mentioned from a cuemaker aspect, from a buyer aspect its all about what feels right to you.

The difference between a high dollar cue and budget cue is the deflection and how the shock is absorbed when contacting the white, If you pick up a 75$ player and hit the white it makes a thud sound and you can feel the vibration very well in your hand. You pick up a $400 lucasi hybrid and that thus goes away significantly and the vibration is moderate at best. And it goes on from there.

The 2 most important part of a cue is the shaft and joint, how the joint handles the shock makes alot of difference when it transfers that energy. The butt is not as important, most important part of the butt is the grip, whatever you feel right with, I prefer a leather grip.

Typically, not in all cases, you get the best bang for the buck going with a plane jane cue that the technology going into the craftsmanship instead of the visual aspects. If you find a cue that just feels right at your local dealer, maybe give craigslist, ebay or the internet a shot. My friend just bought a predator thrown cue for 375, valued at 1200.

Skippy27 said:

Being that pretty much any good shaft (ld or not) can be bought for just about any butt makes your argument here more about shafts then cues. Being that the butt is 95% of the expense of a cue, if not more, your entire statement is contradictory concerning why a "good cue" is considered a good cue and worth the expense.

From the above it sounds like people pay upwards of $2-4K for a cue because it is custom made for them. I understand how that works in golf clubs to make your game better, but what is customized for an individual in a cue that a cue craftsmen would be asking in designing your cue that makes it improve your game?

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It's about 2 things, really. Personal pride and preference. Pride in how the cue looks, the materials, the reputation of the builder, exclusivity/uniqueness of the cue, etc. Preference in the materials used, the size, balance point, weight, taper, handle/wrap material, etc. There are some differences in feel/tone of the type of wood and construction type in the butt end. If cost is an issue and you're really focused on playability, then I'd just get a solid quality production cue in the weight/length you want and spend my money on a good after market shaft/tip combo.

The bottom line is, preference and pride do make a difference. If you love the cue and are proud of it, you will play better. It's all between the ears, which is where 90% of this game is.

West Point 1987 said:

It's about 2 things, really. Personal pride and preference. The bottom line is, preference and pride do make a difference. If you love the cue and are proud of it, you will play better. It's all between the ears, which is where 90% of this game is.

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OP.....Bill is spot on here with the bold statement above. Most cue decisions start with the almighty $ ! How much are you willing to spend. Want versus need. There are lots of things to take into consideration when trying to compare one cue to another, let alone one cue maker to another. And the AZB search function is a great place to start Good luck!

Skippy27 said:

Thanks West Point and Pace, I believe the 2 of you sum it up pretty well - Getting a custom cue is more about the pride and prestige of having X's cue and paying $Y for it.

That would be supported by what I gather here and from my personal experience I would say the butt of the cue means very little as the shaft and the tip actually determine the playability of the overall cue you are using. I have used my shaft/tip on a $300 McDermott and a $2500+ custom with no difference in the play or feel.

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Learning about cues is like taking private lessons or attending a good school. To actually "learn" something takes time. There are knowledgeable teachers and good schools with access to them. There are also not so good.

You're not even done with the first "semester" and you've handed in your thesis already...

That's what you get for taking "Internet" courses.. lol

I think you may need "Stay In School" at wee bit longer.

Joe Gold chose the name "Cognoscenti" for his cues because he wanted to build cues for those who understood what the name meant. The loose definition "Those who know the difference". He succeeded.

The differences between a decent cue and a great cue are many. Those differences are what make them "worth it" whether you can afford it or not. We all can't afford a Ferrari but that don't make them worth any less than what you pay.

To answer the OP's question.... Attention to every detail through every step before, during, and after the build. The builder themselves need to "know the difference" as well. Of course the biggest is supply and demand which supports the prior.

Matt takes a lot of time to get it right which is good

sounds good to me
dc

Skippy27 said:

Thanks West Point and Pace, I believe the 2 of you sum it up pretty well - Getting a custom cue is more about the pride and prestige of having X's cue and paying $Y for it.

That would be supported by what I gather here and from my personal experience I would say the butt of the cue means very little as the shaft and the tip actually determine the playability of the overall cue you are using. I have used my shaft/tip on a $300 McDermott and a $2500+ custom with no difference in the play or feel.

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Was the $2500 a newer Richard Black? Because that would probably feel like a $300 McDermott.

The cue does matter a lot more but only if it isnt filled full of inlays and metals. The age of the wood in the butt and how it is constructed is definitely noticeable. The more expensive the cue is doesn't mean it hits better but the $800 to $1200 cues that are decorated like christmas trees do hit better IMO. A $800 Durbin feels like an extension of the arm.

Shaftwood of custom cues tends to be older and higher quality than production. There are a few custom cuemakers than are renowned for their LD shafts as well. Others for the resonance in the butt of the cue. A one piece Cocobolo butt that aged hits awesome. Find me a production cue that is made that way. Ebony is also one of the best hitting woods because of its density. Most production cues that use ebony use sleeves rather than solid pieces. Custom makers can build cues with a lot more ebony by coring, wood combinations and other methods to keep weight down.

Ultimately I don't think getting past $1500 for a cue is going to improve the feel or hit of a cue. You can get a cue on the simpler side for around $1000 dollars and will feel like heaven.

Ultimately quality is a huge part of it. Quality production cues are definitely good enough and a lot of them hit well.

Cues

Skippy27 said:

So I hear a lot of talk about this cue and that cue and I am assuming when people talk of a cue they are mainly referring to the bottom half as the shafts are a dime a dozen out there. By that I simply mean there are many brands and designs that fit pretty universally with others bottoms (depending on joint) and any tip can be put on any shaft.

I hear tales of how this one hits better than that one or this one is better then that one because of "X" and it took my game to a new level, etc. But honestly, what is it that makes one cue makers cue better than another that would justify some of the prices being asked for out there?

Is it...
Wood?
Balance?
Taper?
Joint?
Artist Design?

Click to expand...

You will never know until you own one or two of them, sometimes the difference is extremely hard to explain.

Bavafongoul said:

Hey Guys.....if you bring up the topic of want vs, need, then this topic becomes pretty moot.......
What one needs, one doesn't always want.....
What one wants, one doesn't always need.....

All a good player needs is a cue......any cue......as long as the weight is right, the tip is good and the cue is straight,
any house cue will work. Any good player will do just fine playing with it.....I've done this and I betcha many of you have as well.

Now this doesn't mean that you didn't long to have your cue to play with instead of that other cue, but that's because you wanted to play with your cue.....you did not need to play with it. Face the facts guys, it's one ego as much as anything else that influence our pool cue purchases. None of us need the pool cue(s) we search to acquire but we nonetheless still desire them and some of us exhibit a more fastidious approach to shopping, selecting and purchasing our pool cues.

If the pool cue-maker takes pride in his workmanship, pays extraordinary attention to the minutia of the cue building making sure each and every component in the design is exactly duplicated in its size & weight, position in the cue design, sharpness and exactness of cuts, seamless gluing, precise veneer widths, rings & inlays perfection, and praiseworthy finish and durability........that cue should play better.

How much is a talented cue-maker time worth....pick a number......if he was an employee, what should he earn per hour...... $15....$20....$25.....$30.....$35......if he's the sole proprietor, $40. $50, $60, $100? Well, the majority of cue-makers are owners and so let's start with a $100/hr........let's say he works 40/hrs. that week......$4000 sound like a lot......$225k per year........Okay? That's the most you'd receive unless you worked more hours so you could build more cues but those hours would be at $100/hr wages to you.

Now you can't send your customers a bill for your mistakes, or your actual costs for marketing, advertising, trade show participation, inventory materials, your shop rent or equipment, utilities, insurance (property, casualty, health, auto), gasoline, sales & payroll taxes, bookkeeping & accounting, etc.....all of that you pay for from your $100/hr.charge to build a cue. So then a cue-maker has to rely upon the mark-up of all materials costs involved building the cue just so he can maintain inventory levels for his shop and contribute to the final profit on each and every cue made......and he has to cover defects, errors, waste, spoilage, etc.

When the cue-maker decides the price for the cue you want made, the numbers of hours contributes heavily in deciding the price.......what's involved in the design....how many hours are involved......if a cue involves 40 hours of labor, that's $4k plus materials.....maybe the cue-maker uses $50/hr and the cue takes 30 hrs and he charges $2300 allowing for $800 for materials and ivory isn't cheap......it's easy to see how some cues cost $3k, $4k, $5k, $10k.......a cue-maker only has so many hours available to build cues if he works alone.......that's why some cue-makers only knock out maybe less than a dozen cues a year.........so if a cue-maker determines their time is worth $150/hr and a cue will require 70-80 hours with intricate designs in ivory, joint, ferrules, butt, a truly fancy design.....is it any wonder why cues actually cost as much as they do.....the last time I checked, there were still only 24 hours in a day and some cue-makers only do this part-time.......appreciate cues for what they are, not what they cost.

Matt B.

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That pretty well sums it up.

Very few, only the very top tier of cue makers, get the money they really deserve and some of them are getting paid mainly for the aesthetics. There are far more cue makers out there who are meticulous artisans who will never command the money for the time, money and effort they have put into their craft. Yet they persist. Just like Van Gogh who never sold a painting during his lifetime. Not that they are all Van Gogh's. lol But many are just as true to their craft.

I was lucky in so far as I met a cue maker who had apprenticed under a cue maker with whom I was familiar. I liked the hit of this cue makers cues and in talking with his one time apprentice I appreciated his cue making philosophy. His focus was on woods and construction. I had him make me a cue and I was immensely satisfied with the end result. I ordered two more cues from him and am very glad I did as his cues have doubled in price.

Chances are that somewhere near to you is a cue maker, without a huge reputation, who makes a very nice affordable cue that you are apt to be extremely happy with. In the meantime try to learn as much as you can about cues and what you truly like.