Palmer Cue Find this week_ Szamboti Forearm?

mikemosconi said:

I had a great garage sale find this weekend- one of my best ever! I found a Palmer Model 12 Limited from the 3rd Palmer Catalog, with 2 shafts, and a Palmer Deluxe Box Case- all in very close to 95% condition. Cue hits a ton! Better than any Palmer I ever played or owned. My question- I understand that some 3rd catalog Palmers had Szamboti forearms- the points on this cue extend all the way up to 2 3/4 inches from the joint collar, higher than other Palmers i have owned or seen. Also the forearm is straight maple, not BEM. The points are ebony and the veneers from the inside out are natural, orange, chartreuse, and ebony- although the outer two veneers are so tight together that it is hard even under a magnifier to discern.
would anyone know if this signifies a Szamboti possibility with this 3rd catalog Palmer?
As I said, the cue hits so, so solid - but in a very good way- seems too good to be true. the two shaft are mint- full 13MM, 12 inch pro taper, one is ivory ferrule, one is a Palmer ferrule, cue overall is very straight for its age- none of them this old are perfect.
Thanks,

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Maybe contact Joe @ Classic cues....
He sure has a lot of knowledge and experience with the Szams'

That's an Adam blank

It’s a very nice fine nice Cue It is a Adam Blank But nice pick up��

Care to make jaws drop by sharing with us what you paid for it? Did the seller know anything about it?

its a newer model of one of the old style cues. gene was long gone when this cue was made. still a nice palmer and worth about 600 if you can find a willing buyer for it.

It’s common knowledge that Palmer was sourcing blanks from Adam during production of the Third Catalog cues.

It would benefit the discussion if you would post close-ups of the forearm and veneers of this cue.

mikemosconi said:

Not sure that Adam made forearm is correct assessment on this cue. It is NOT a Palmer Custom Cue from the 80s/90s- it is a legit Palmer THIRD catalog model 12 Limited from the early.mid 70s- did not think that Palmer was using ADAM blanks at that time. They stamped the word "PALMER" on the butt cap of their non window cues from the third catalog. The stamped the word" Palmer Custom Cue" on cues made AFTER the third catalog models- from what I know. I looked at the Palmer Collector scan of the third catalog- it is a Model 12 Limited for sure! As for what i paid for it at the tag sale-I never reveal that- I sell many cues that I find this way.

This cue is NOT from the Palmer PB or PM line- they were stamped "Palmer Custom Cues" - I believe THOSE Palmer cues used Adam blanks and NOT early 70s 3rd catalog Palmers. The family I acquired it from told me it was purchased in the early 70s.

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We can see the colors from here. Adam blanks had distinctive colors. Taiwan Orange appears to be used here. Close-ups will be helpful.

Contact Chris Tate.... he might be able to help you out !!

I have the same cue !

If you knew all this info, why ask? You want validation more than you want the truth.

The lightness of the butt forearm appears too Bright when compared to the wood that Gus used. I had a 1978 Zam, made new, for 10 yrs.

mikemosconi said:

I don't know if this was a Szamboti forearm- THAT was my original request- I DO sincerely appreciate everyone's input and value their knowledge- I don't know everything about Palmer cues- so please don't turn this thread into something ugly- not my intent- so why are you going there? Having a bad day pal?
if you are looking for a fight somewhere - look elsewhere- you chose the wrong guy- i promise you that!

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Consensus said it was an Adam blank, do you accept that? That's all the thread was ever about until you disagreed with the opinions.

For one, this looks like a very nice cue and it's not an easy to find model. I've had a couple but there were very few made compared to some other catalog 3 cues.

Just to shed some light on this, maybe for future reference, here is some information.

By that time, mid to late 1970's mostly and some early 1980's, Palmer had stopped making their own forearms. The ebony pronged forearms in the higher 3rd catalog model numbers were often made from Szamboti blanks but these could only be supplied in smaller batches.

The ones that weren't made from Szamboti's, starting in around 1975, Palmer bought full splice forearms from Adam, David Forman. Later, for supply purposes, Palmer bought from KPS, Falcon Cues, of Taiwan. The Adam and the KPS blanks were made in the same way. My experience is it's very difficult to tell these apart, but from what I've seen, the KPS points have a different geometry (longer points) with slightly thinner veneers. They are both made full splice.

If Mike were to remove the wrap and expose the bottom of the forearm, if it revealed full splice, then no - this would eliminate Szamboti. In many cases, the Adam and KPS forearms were cut in the handle area but rarely before the veneers end at the handle side.

On to Szamboti - if it is cut short of the bottom veneer intersection, there is a chance it could be a Szamboti. It is not easy telling the difference between the blanks when they are cut short. Even difficult for Barry to really see it unless he has it in his hands. The tight veneer work, the thickness and colors of the veneer, the color sequence of the veneers, the symmetry of the points - all contribute to identification.

The symmetry of the points is important. The angle of the prongs will remain the same because the same jig is used again and again. Adam redid theirs a couple of times over the years to change from shorter, stubbier points to longer, slender ones.

In an effort to get them identified, I've been involved with a few. Unless Barry himself says it's a Szamboti, that to me is the only way I would 100% buy the story. He can tell the difference but it's not easy.

I have sold most of my Palmer collection, but I actually have one of these that I am pretty sure is a Szamboti and that's why I'm not selling it. Mine is ebony prongs with double ebony veneers and birdseye forearm, short splice. Most I've seen have been like the one Mike has above which, from appearances, looks like an Adam or KPS forearm to me. Removing the wrap would take it to the next step.

TATE said:

The symmetry of the points is important.

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Hard to tell from the pic but . . . should they be even if it were a Szamboti blank???

Sorry, meant to attach this on previous post . . .

forabeer said:

Hard to tell from the pic but . . . should they be even if it were a Szamboti blank???

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No - unfortunately that can also be the way the cue is centered on the lathe. Palmer had high production and they put out a lot of uneven length points. You can tell if it's the lathe or the blank by the manner in which they are uneven. If the adjacent sides match each other, it's the lathe. If they are up, down, up down, it's the blank. It's not just the veneered points, you have to look at the prongs as well. See the prong on the right is short even though the veneers are pretty even. Making a hand cut forearm like this, it's very difficult to get these even.

When I speak of symmetry, I am talking strictly at the angle formed by the individual points and prong. The jig angle remains the same as long as that same jig is being used.

forabeer said:

Sorry, meant to attach this on previous post . . .

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Forabeer - thanks for putting up that photo. I have to do a few things to do right now but this afternoon I'll try to put up some pictures to show exactly what I'm talking about. I'll dig up my (suspected) Szamboti Palmer Model 12 like this one and show some comparisons.