New jump rule??
- Thread starter Neil
- Start date
Neil said:
I think the rule was not created by the industry group, the BCA, but rather by the tournament promotion organization, The Texas Exrress group or whatever the official name was. I am sure that Robin Adair or Randy Goetlicher can clarify this. I believe the BCA only adopted their rule. As far as I know the rule was put into effect to stop the production of the jump rods which were steel or wooden clubs with 15mm tips that were shorter than shafts. I do not know what the exact reasoning here was but I am POSITIVE that it wsan't to spur the sales of jump cues.
Jump cues with handles had been around well before the jump rods. Joss, Meucci, and Huebler all had versions. Many people had made their own from broken cues including me.
The reason shaft jumping is not practical is that you have very little control over the cueball.
Yes, you can make the cueball hop easier. But that is like saying that the only value to a pool cue is that you can make the cueball go forward.
You are not the first person to think of the "fake" handle idea. Lots of people have done it and abandoned it not because it's against the rules but instead because it severely limits the amount of CONTROLLED jump shots you can make.
Just as the pool cue itself has evolved into it's present form as the optimum instument for controlling the cue ball so has the jump cue evolved into it's present form as the optimal way to control the cue ball on a jump shot.
As for the Dollar Bill jump I was once doing an exhibition at a show and a guy came up and offered to bet that he could do it with five tries for $500 using a Bunjee Jumper Jump cue (the brand I was selling). I pulled out a couple thousand and threw it on the table and said, "you have one try for all of it". He declined. Later that evening he brougth someone else to the booth and got them to bet $500 on five tries and he did on the second try using a 9oz Bunjee Jumper jump cue. Then he showed me how to do it for free.
Again though, it's not the act of jumping one ball over another one that is the hard part. That's just proper technique and stroke. The hard part is controlling your cue ball on a jump shot.
So, if you can use your shaft with straws taped to it to control your rock then great. I will bet serious dough that I can set up 20 jump shots and you will not make 15 of them with just a tricked up shaft.
Actually there is plenty consistent.
Balls: Round, made of phenolic resin compounds, all weigh about 6oz, and have around the same degree of elasticity. In pool the standard diameter is 2.25inches.
Cushions: Made of gum rubber, nose is approximately the same height on all tables, elasticity is very close over various brands.
Cloth: Comes in two types, with nap and without and within those two types there is very little variation. Whichever one is used provides a consistent playing surface.
Slate: precision machined to provide a stable and flat surface regardless of manufacturer.
Cues: have evolved into tapered instruments that are all pretty much the same with only slight variances. The shape and weight and size of a pool cue is nearly the same the world over.
Tips: they are all about the same, made of pressed and treated leather and shaped pretty much in the same way all over the world.
Chalk: pretty much the same composition all over the world.
In other words pool as it stands right now is vastly different than it was 100 years ago. And it's a more consistent playing environment which showcases players able to perform to the best of their ability.
Geez....if I saw in one of his videos that he invented a jump tip......hes way ahead pf you man
I just got done watching SVB vs David G live...
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/fast-eddies-olhausen-9-ball-tour
Some moments that stood out:
-David G rolls out by nudging the CB to within 8ish inches of the interfering ball. The 1 is maybe 6 inches on the other side of that ball and a foot from the pocket. David is basically daring shane to jump and risk knocking something off the table.. and shane takes him up and drills it in. People were pretty excited by that.
-David made a nice longer jump to sink a ball in the corner and drew back just enough to get shape on the next ball.
-Shane tried a very close jump at a ball that's near the rail and drives both CB and OB off the table.
The first two added excitement and enjoyment for the spectators, and I'm sure if you asked the players they'd say they enjoyed it too. The last example is just to remind everyone that it's not just a matter of having the right cue or even being good at jumping. Even a world class player can screw it up. It is not the easy way out or shortcut that some people makes it sound like. And if you screw it up, you are virtually guaranteed to lose, so there's risk.
Despite both players being fine jumpers, I think I saw like 4 jumps in 30 racks. They haven't drastically altered the game or ruined pool's integrity, or even ruined kicking and safety play. There were far more kicks than jump attempts, and the majority of the safes were not situations where the CB is locked in tight against another ball. One of the awesome shots I witnessed was when David G kicked at an un-cuttable ball on the short rail even though there was no interfering ball... and made it and got out. Kicks are not some lost art that is dying out just because they keep coming up with slick new jump cues.
If it adds excitement to the game and something new for the players to master, without compromising the basics of what makes pool great... then I doubt it's a bad thing.
PS to Flex-
=/ You can be literal and pretend that I meant 'absolutely never, in the history of the sport, has a jump ever been attempted in straight pool or 1 pocket by any human being on the entire planet'... or you can act like the smart human being I know you are and admit that it is so rare that you might as well call it "never".
I mean, I could go out of my way to talk about the zillion 1p and 14.1 videos I've seen where there are 0 jumps, or how the commentator in one JS match said jumps were simply not used in that game (because yes, JS did eyeball a shot for a jump at one point... don't recall if he actually took it or made it). But it's pretty self-evident.
Jumps change (not ruin) 1 niche aspect of a few (not all) pool games. Let's not make them out to be more than they are. Pool has survived jump cues 20+ years after their introduction. The game is clearly not some frenzy of airborne balls where only the elderly bother with kicks.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/fast-eddies-olhausen-9-ball-tour
Some moments that stood out:
-David G rolls out by nudging the CB to within 8ish inches of the interfering ball. The 1 is maybe 6 inches on the other side of that ball and a foot from the pocket. David is basically daring shane to jump and risk knocking something off the table.. and shane takes him up and drills it in. People were pretty excited by that.
-David made a nice longer jump to sink a ball in the corner and drew back just enough to get shape on the next ball.
-Shane tried a very close jump at a ball that's near the rail and drives both CB and OB off the table.
The first two added excitement and enjoyment for the spectators, and I'm sure if you asked the players they'd say they enjoyed it too. The last example is just to remind everyone that it's not just a matter of having the right cue or even being good at jumping. Even a world class player can screw it up. It is not the easy way out or shortcut that some people makes it sound like. And if you screw it up, you are virtually guaranteed to lose, so there's risk.
Despite both players being fine jumpers, I think I saw like 4 jumps in 30 racks. They haven't drastically altered the game or ruined pool's integrity, or even ruined kicking and safety play. There were far more kicks than jump attempts, and the majority of the safes were not situations where the CB is locked in tight against another ball. One of the awesome shots I witnessed was when David G kicked at an un-cuttable ball on the short rail even though there was no interfering ball... and made it and got out. Kicks are not some lost art that is dying out just because they keep coming up with slick new jump cues.
If it adds excitement to the game and something new for the players to master, without compromising the basics of what makes pool great... then I doubt it's a bad thing.
PS to Flex-
=/ You can be literal and pretend that I meant 'absolutely never, in the history of the sport, has a jump ever been attempted in straight pool or 1 pocket by any human being on the entire planet'... or you can act like the smart human being I know you are and admit that it is so rare that you might as well call it "never".
I mean, I could go out of my way to talk about the zillion 1p and 14.1 videos I've seen where there are 0 jumps, or how the commentator in one JS match said jumps were simply not used in that game (because yes, JS did eyeball a shot for a jump at one point... don't recall if he actually took it or made it). But it's pretty self-evident.
Jumps change (not ruin) 1 niche aspect of a few (not all) pool games. Let's not make them out to be more than they are. Pool has survived jump cues 20+ years after their introduction. The game is clearly not some frenzy of airborne balls where only the elderly bother with kicks.
Thanks for your comments, CreeDo.
It's true that jumps are seldom employed in 14.1 and one pocket, but they do come up from time to time, and I've seen others attempt them.
Jumps do not unalterably destroy the game, and most of the older players I know with whom jumping has been discussed (and who do not jump) have told me they never learned how to do it. If they're interested, yours truly is only too happy to show them how, and what sort of cue works particularly well for certain types of jump shots. If they don't want to learn, that's their business. Nevertheless, if they see me jumping at times and winning because of that, and they express displeasure or nausea, that's not my problem. Jumping, with a jump cue or full cue with regular tip (and I'm able to do both) is a necessary skill, especially today, no matter one's age.
Flex
The DCC only allows jumping with your playing cue. That tournament does okay.
Why does DCC ban jump cues? Is it because Diamond sells those tables afterward and wants them in good shape? If so, doesn't that pretty much prove that jumping is hard on the table and cloth? And if that is true, isn't that reason enough to ban jump cues?
Kicking systems like that don't exist. Rails all play differently, balls skid and go long on new cloth and the more worn the cloth is the shorter the rails play to a point. Hitting anything but straight center alters the path of the kick in any one of a million different ways and it is critical to often play kicks with spin.
The reality is the best bank pool players, the best 1-pocket players, the best kickers in the game of pool do not use systems. They do not sit there and count out diamonds and do higher math with a protracter and a measuring tape out to figure out how to hit the ball. They hit a ridiculous amount of kicks, both single and multi-rail and they build a inherant knowledge of how the cueball comes off the rails, and they adjust to the various conditions, cloth, dead rails or overly lively rails accordingly.
There is NONE of that kind of learning curve with the jump cue. Those cues took a hugely rich and developed part of the game that takes as much practice as any part of the game to excel at and made it irrelevant 90% of the time.
It is the hacks who cannot play shape or have not put in the time, or have the skill to successfully kick that love having "that" wide range of skill and knowledge required to kick largely mitigated by their ability to jump out of 90% of the safeties or self made hooks they face. The jump shot does not require nearly the time and practice to master, it is a crutch for people to lean on and a equalizer between the good, and not so good players of the world. And that is the last thing this game needs atm.
Not sure about where you live but shaft jumps were outlawed quite quickly in most events I played in. Jump cues were invented to cover the (40 inch or more) rule trying to make jumping as easy as technologically possible for players. That was not the intent of the rule, the rule should just change to (you must shoot with the same cue you shoot with after the break, start to finish).
Not everyone, I am the younger generation and I bloody hate jump shots. They are a gimmick and I honestly feel they are doing more harm then good to the game by far. When is the last time you saw a person play a masse shot in a pro event? People used to like seeing those, good luck seeing one very often with jump cues allowed. And masse shots take heaps more skill then a jump cue made jump shot, which is the reason people use jump cues constantly over the masse to begin with, the same with the kicks. People don't even think "kick" anymore, it is an automatic run for the jumper.
Greg should come on here and explain why he does not allow jump cues. They obviously are used in the action games at the DCC so it's not as if the wear on the table is the primary reason. I bet it's just a way for Greg to show his dislike of them. Like I said many times it's one of the reasons that this game will never get big. Every promoter and tournament director changes the rules to suit themselves.
Jumping is NOT HARD on the tables or the cloth. Please stop perpetrating this myth.
A jump shot flattens the fibers creating a white spot that is white BECAUSE the fiber is reflecting light at a different angle. That spot can be brushed out and made to disappear. Nor does the shot affect the slate in any way.
I have show this to room owners around the world.
ARRRGH - OK Spidey - no more typing - YEAR OF THE VIDEO PROOF.
John - has a lot of videos to make.
Well said Celtic !!!
I knew if I kept peeking at this thread, some younger guy would express my exact feelings on the jump cue BS.
Very well worded too, Celtic.
Also your take on rail systems is spot on correct IMO.
One thing nice about internet squabbles, you CAN get a word in edgewise.
(even if you are up against someone who thinks they know just about all there is to know about everything)
Dick <---still kicks and masses. I notice you don't see 'NO MASSE SHOTS ALLOWED' signs in pool rooms any more. I'm sure its because the room owner's got tired of all the young bangers asking.... "whats a masse" ?
PS. Please read Celtic's original post, as the phrases he was referring too did not carry over.
I knew if I kept peeking at this thread, some younger guy would express my exact feelings on the jump cue BS.
Very well worded too, Celtic.
Also your take on rail systems is spot on correct IMO.
One thing nice about internet squabbles, you CAN get a word in edgewise.
(even if you are up against someone who thinks they know just about all there is to know about everything)
Dick <---still kicks and masses. I notice you don't see 'NO MASSE SHOTS ALLOWED' signs in pool rooms any more. I'm sure its because the room owner's got tired of all the young bangers asking.... "whats a masse" ?
PS. Please read Celtic's original post, as the phrases he was referring too did not carry over.
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mongoose-
Banned
I have a jump cue & can use it very well. Granted I have been playing this game a long time but it took me about a minute to figure out how to use it. I got it because so many are using them now & you gotta have the gimicks to compete. Do I think jump cues should be allowed. NO. I think if one is going to jump it should be done with a regular playing cue. Jump cues take too much away from decent safety play. This of course just my opinion but when I play a decent safe on a player that can only run 4 or 5 balls & they pull out a jump cue and make a hit when they couldn't come 10 rows of an a**hole of kicking it it's enough to make me sick. Any idiot can jump with a jump cue.
Sounds to me you need to sharpen up your safety skills.
mongoose-
Banned
Flex as I said that was just my opinion. My safety game is just fine.. I play a low A level game. So thanks for the insult.
Dick, just because someone echoed your sentiments doesn't make them right. Young people are highly impressionable
And yes you can get a word in edgewise but don't be surprised when that word is dissected 20 ways.
John
John, Just because you are a proponent of jump cues, (AND in the business of selling them) does not mean your lengthy diatribes and dissections are indisputably correct.
You have a habit of talking down to anyone who disagrees with your take on ANY given subject.
You tend to throw $10,000. bets in their face (which is really a huge turn-off to most hard working middle class guys) knowing you will not be called.
In our last heated exchange, I thought we agreed to disagree.
I will still spout my beliefs, just as you have a right to assert yours.
However, you should not treat everyone who doesn't see the world through your eyes...as an uninformed idiot.
That is very disrespectful.
Dick
PS. I will ALWAYS view jump cues, as tatamount to a "foot wedge" in golf. Also, regardless of what you espouse, the skill to use one or the other is about equal. JMHO
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Not an insult, at all. I'm sorry you took offense. Certainly wasn't my intention to insult you.
However.............
Your safety game can obviously use a bit of work if a rank beginner can easily jump and make contact with the correct ball. Regardless of the level of your game, which you state is "a low A level game," if it's so easy to jump out of a hook, that hook isn't good enough. Sorry if I said something obvious.
With some of the fellows I know, when they lay down a safety, there's no jump there, at least if they're laying a good one.
Flex