Met a friendly fellow AZer in Florida

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Too many people swear by [CTE] for it to be snake oil. I just don't seem to get it, and not for lack of trying.
The snake oil is the illogical claims about how it works (i.e., with no "feel" or estimation needed). It's also, in my view, more complicated than it needs to be. These two combined are likely why so many, like you, have a hard time getting it.

pj
chgo
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
The snake oil is the illogical claims about how it works (i.e., with no "feel" or estimation needed). It's also, in my view, more complicated than it needs to be. These two combined are likely why so many, like you, have a hard time getting it.

pj
chgo

Pat not wanting to turn this thread ugly.

Be well:)
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
The thing is, Dave was a very accomplished player before CTE. The system just enables him to look at shot with more consistency, to see the shots differently when compared to traditional aiming methods.

I watched as he played and there was no obvious pivoting or funny looking stuff. And he missed balls in the same manner that I did, but less often. He is definitely a solid player, and I really didn't care about any of the CTE business. I was out of stroke and he outplayed me. Next time could easily be different.

Brian I don't know how you feel about Fargorate. My experience is it's pretty darned accurate. You have a well established fargo of 605. Which means you're not really that good or consistent. Trust me I know because I'm currently 607. Dave is a better player than I am. I've watched his matches. You weren't "out of stroke", you're just not a consistently strong player, just like me. The next time will probably not be different unless you do something to improve your game first. No disrespect intended just the cold hard truth.

It's easy to make the mistake of self assessing based on your best performances but that's not reality.

Based on your posts about CTE here on this aiming forum I feel you missed a huge opportunity to understand it better and based on Dave's posting I think he would have been more than happy to show you.
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Based on your posts about CTE here on this aiming forum I feel you missed a huge opportunity to understand it better and based on Dave's posting I think he would have been more than happy to show you.

I'm pretty certain that Brian understands it better than Dave does. That does not mean that Dave is not successful doing whatever it is he thinks he is doing.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the kind of stuff you learn in Gene's book.

Yes, but to be clear, you are learning how to lose a little more slowly. Hot streaks do happen and they seem to be unstoppable. They will change dice, change the stick man, etc to try and stop it. The only way for the player to win is to keep his hot streak thousands and never step foot back in the casino, but who ever does that?

Blackjack was more my thing than craps. You could destroy the house with card counting a two deck shoe, but they got smart and went to 6 decks and then continuous card shufflers. Game over. Card counting relies on clustering of high and low cards so the 6 decks watered it down and then putting the used cards killed off card counting, unless there's some other idea out there I'm not aware of. Haven't kept up with it for many years now.

I suppose you can still make money playing at the poker tables where it really is a game of skill. You're not taking the casino's money so as long as they get the vig they don't care.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Brian I don't know how you feel about Fargorate. My experience is it's pretty darned accurate. You have a well established fargo of 605. Which means you're not really that good or consistent. Trust me I know because I'm currently 607. Dave is a better player than I am. I've watched his matches. You weren't "out of stroke", you're just not a consistently strong player, just like me. The next time will probably not be different unless you do something to improve your game first. No disrespect intended just the cold hard truth.

It's easy to make the mistake of self assessing based on your best performances but that's not reality.

Based on your posts about CTE here on this aiming forum I feel you missed a huge opportunity to understand it better and based on Dave's posting I think he would have been more than happy to show you.


Fargo is good for league play or handicaps. I don't know well you play. I typically break and run several racks in every long race or match I play, either 8ball or 9ball. Dave and I played 18 games of 9ball and neither of us broke and ran one rack. That was unusual for me, and I'm sure it was for him as well. So yes, I was way "out of stroke". When Dave started playing better, I fully expected to step up into my normal speed. But I couldn't do it.

As far as Fargo.....Our local BCA 8ball league has over 100 players, and 13 have Fargo ratings of 600 or better. I am ranked 13th by my fargo score, the lowest of all the 600+ players. The highest player is 670 or something like that. Most of my teammate's are between 630 and 640. It really means very little.

I finished last season ranked #1 in points. We played 25 weeks....5 measly games of 8ball every week, for a total of 125 games. Each ball pocketed is 1 point and the 8 is 3 points, so a win equals 10 points. I earned 1,077 points out of a possible 1,250. I won 94 out of 125 games. Ranking by total wins I finished 2nd. The 1st place guy was on my team and he had won 96 out of 125 games. His fargo is 641. Fargo is based on wins vs loses. A 600 in a strong league is a stronger player than a 600 in a weaker league. If I played more Fargo rated tournaments then my score might be different, but my 605 is based primarily on local league play, 5 games of 8ball per week. Maybe one week the opposing team is a group of 400 rated players. You play each person one game. Sometimes even a 400 can get surprise you with a win. The following week you play 5 players with 600+ ratings. Many of those games are coin tosses, break and runs for either team. And any player is subject to lose to any other player, regardless of fargo scores.

One of my regular shooting buddies, Preacher John, is 647. He does not run over top of me. We have very tight matches. If he is off his game, I beat him. If I'm off my game, he beats me. Normally, it's a coin toss. The Fargo difference means nothing between about 590 and 660 or so. These players are pretty evenly matched. 670 or higher I can begin noticing a difference in consistency and skill level, though I have beaten a few 700+ players in vegas in short races to 4 or 5.

When I played Dave I was off my game, big time. Funny thing is, my brother had proposed to his girlfriend the night before, and we stayed up drinking and celebrating until around 3 or 4am. Then around 9am my girlfriend woke me up and wanted to go thrift store shopping. I got dressed, popped some advil for my hangover, and grabbed my cue case because I wasn't sure how long we'd be out and I was supposed to meet Dave at 3pm.

I ended up finding a very nice baby bed for my daughter (she's pregnant with my 1st grandbaby!) We also found a pilate machine for my girlfriend. I dismantled those contraptions in the sun, sweating out the previous night's liquor of course. Then it was already 2pm and I told her I had to get to the poolhall. We hadn't eaten a thing, just drank a few cups of coffee. She said she'd eat at the condo and I figured on eating at Family Billiards. I dropped her off and headed over to meet Dave.

Family Billiards doesn't serve food. I grabbed a bag of chips and a water and started playing pool. I know I talked Dave's ears off at first, and neither of us were focused enough to play runout 9ball. I figured I'd get into normal stroke eventually, but I never did. My stomach was growling so I grabbed a couple of snicker bars. Meanwhile, Dave seemed to have found a good rhythm, was playing with more focus. I, on the other hand, was still struggling and would continue to struggle.

I don't care about fargo scores. Normally I am not struggling to play the game. When you typically runout at least 2 or 3 out of 5 open racks, but for some reason you can't seem to get things clicking like that, most people would just say screw it and quit. I've always played through it. When I'm playing well I don't want to quit. When I'm playing bad I don't want to quit until I start playing well. It just never happened. The worse thing about not playing well is bringing your opponent down a bit by not providing much competition. I apologized for this.

So....yes, things will be different if we play again. You don't have to believe it, but I know my game pretty well, not based on best performances, but based on my normal play. If 10 is when I'm at my best, playing lights out, my normal game is between 7 and 8. An occassional 10 will come along some days. I walked into that place to show Dave my 8 game, maybe even my 10 game if all the pieces fit right. Instead, I showed him my 5 or 6, which doesn't happen very often. If it did, I'd have quit this game years ago. It's just too embarrassing to play that bad.
 
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Coos Cues

Coos Cues
Fargo is good for league play or handicaps. I don't know well you play. I typically break and run several racks in every long race or match I play, either 8ball or 9ball. Dave and I played 18 games of 9ball and neither of us broke and ran one rack. That was unusual for me, and I'm sure it was for him as well. So yes, I was way "out of stroke". When Dave started playing better, I fully expected to step up into my normal speed. But I couldn't do it.

As far as Fargo.....Our local BCA 8ball league has over 100 players, and 13 have Fargo ratings of 600 or better. I am ranked 13th by my fargo score, the lowest of all the 600+ players. The highest player is 670 or something like that. Most of my teammate's are between 630 and 640. It really means very little.

I finished last season ranked #1 in points. We played 25 weeks....5 measly games of 8ball every week, for a total of 125 games. Each ball pocketed is 1 point and the 8 is 3 points, so a win equals 10 points. I earned 1,077 points out of a possible 1,250. I won 94 out of 125 games. Ranking by total wins I finished 2nd. The 1st place guy was on my team and he had won 96 out of 125 games. His fargo is 641. Fargo is based on wins vs loses. A 600 in a strong league is a stronger player than a 600 in a weaker league. If I played more Fargo rated tournaments then my score might be different, but my 605 is based primarily on local league play, 5 games of 8ball per week. Maybe one week the opposing team is a group of 400 rated players. You play each person one game. Sometimes even a 400 can get surprise you with a win. The following week you play 5 players with 600+ ratings. Many of those games are coin tosses, break and runs for either team. And any player is subject to lose to any other player, regardless of fargo scores.

One of my regular shooting buddies, Preacher John, is 647. He does not run over top of me. We have very tight matches. If he is off his game, I beat him. If I'm off my game, he beats me. Normally, it's a coin toss. The Fargo difference means nothing between about 590 and 660 or so. These players are pretty evenly matched. 670 or higher I can begin noticing a difference in consistency and skill level, though I have beaten a few 700+ players in vegas in short races to 4 or 5.

When I played Dave I was off my game, big time. Funny thing is, my brother had proposed to his girlfriend the night before, and we stayed up drinking and celebrating until around 3 or 4am. Then around 9am my girlfriend woke me up and wanted to go thrift store shopping. I got dressed, popped some advil for my hangover, and grabbed my cue case because I wasn't sure how long we'd be out and I was supposed to meet Dave at 3pm.

I ended up finding a very nice baby bed for my daughter (she's pregnant with my 1st grandbaby!) We also found a pilate machine for my girlfriend. I dismantled those contraptions in the sun, sweating out the previous night's liquor of course. Then it was already 2pm and I told her I had to get to the poolhall. We hadn't eaten a thing, just drank a few cups of coffee. She said she'd eat at the condo and I figured on eating at Family Billiards. I dropped her off and headed over to meet Dave.

Family Billiards doesn't serve food. I grabbed a bag of chips and a water and started playing pool. I know I talked Dave's ears off at first, and neither of us were focused enough to play runout 9ball. I figured I'd get into normal stroke eventually, but I never did. My stomach was growling so I grabbed a couple of snicker bars. Meanwhile, Dave seemed to have found a good rhythm, was playing with more focus. I, on the other hand, was still struggling and would continue to struggle.

I don't care about fargo scores. Normally I am not struggling to play the game. When you typically runout at least 2 or 3 out of 5 open racks, but for some reason you can't seem to get things clicking like that, most people would just say screw it and quit. I've always played through it. When I'm playing well I don't want to quit. When I'm playing bad I don't want to quit until I start playing well. It just never happened. The worse thing about not playing well is bringing your opponent down a bit by not providing much competition. I apologized for this.

So....yes, things will be different if we play again. You don't have to believe it, but I know my game pretty well, not based on best performances, but based on my normal play. If 10 is when I'm at my best, playing lights out, my normal game is between 7 and 8. An occassional 10 will come along some days. I walked into that place to show Dave my 8 game, maybe even my 10 game if all the pieces fit right. Instead, I showed him my 5 or 6, which doesn't happen very often. If it did, I'd have quit this game years ago. It's just too embarrassing to play that bad.

Sounds about right for a low 600 player. I broke and ran one out of every 4 games I played in league last 8 ball session where I had the break. I have beat many players ranked considerably higher than I also. And lost to some dogs. I believe you were "off" against Dave but there is no difference between 600 players dependent upon where you play. Mike Page has proven this six ways to Sunday. The reason your average game is 7 or 8 and sometimes you play at ten is because you also play at 5 just as often. We sometimes just don't like to admit this. I have no issue admitting the true state of my skills. It's around a 600 fargo, same as yours. Which leaves a guy pissed off at himself fairly often. Carry on.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sounds about right for a low 600 player. I broke and ran one out of every 4 games I played in league last 8 ball session where I had the break. I have beat many players ranked considerably higher than I also. And lost to some dogs. I believe you were "off" against Dave but there is no difference between 600 players dependent upon where you play. Mike Page has proven this six ways to Sunday. The reason your average game is 7 or 8 and sometimes you play at ten is because you also play at 5 just as often. We sometimes just don't like to admit this. I have no issue admitting the true state of my skills. It's around a 600 fargo, same as yours. Which leaves a guy pissed off at himself fairly often. Carry on.

If I were pissed at myself fairly often because of bad play, I'd quit playing. Lol

I believe Fargorate is the best way to estimate skill level among players. But I also believe it's a rough estimation tool. It works great if players are involved in a lot of fargorate events outside of their own league. This makes it possible for a 600 in Hongkong to be equivalent to a 600 in West Virgina. We have several players that play in a lot of Fargorate events, and their ratings range between 630 and 670. They are good players, but locally in the league they are not in the top 5 when you look at the stats. Why not? How can a 605 player consistently rank at the top when it comes to total games won and total points accumulated?

It's because the fargo system is designed to be used across a wide range of players, from all leagues, where players from different leagues have opportunities to play each other. This balances out the numbers. For players who primarily stick to in-house league play, don't venture out to compete with other fargorated players, the system isn't all that accurate. It's more of an in-house pecking order system for us. The funny thing is, according to Fargorate I should get 3 games on the wire racing to 9 against most of my gambling buddies, the ones who actually go out and play in fargorated tournaments and have fargorates in the 630's and 640's. They can't give me 3 games on the wire.

Maybe it's due to the league format, 5 games per week against 5 different players. One week you might play a bunch of 400's and win all 5 games. The next week you play all 600's. You break and run out one game, break dry and watch your next opponent run out, then sit and watch your next 3 opponents break and run out on you. You win 1 out of 5. The following week you play a group of 500's and lose a game to a player that has never beaten you, but his fargorate is 100 points lower so your rate comes down based on this one game. The system just doesn't work as well in that single game type of league format. But it's still the best rating system out there, especially for those who travel around and compete more with other players in fargorate events.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, but to be clear, you are learning how to lose a little more slowly. Hot streaks do happen and they seem to be unstoppable. They will change dice, change the stick man, etc to try and stop it. The only way for the player to win is to keep his hot streak thousands and never step foot back in the casino, but who ever does that?

Blackjack was more my thing than craps. You could destroy the house with card counting a two deck shoe, but they got smart and went to 6 decks and then continuous card shufflers. Game over. Card counting relies on clustering of high and low cards so the 6 decks watered it down and then putting the used cards killed off card counting, unless there's some other idea out there I'm not aware of. Haven't kept up with it for many years now.

I suppose you can still make money playing at the poker tables where it really is a game of skill. You're not taking the casino's money so as long as they get the vig they don't care.

That's why it's called gambling. The trick is knowing when to leave. It's hard to quit when you're winning, and even harder when you're losing. It takes discipline. The best thing to do is to pick an amount you're willing to lose, an amount you can afford to lose that won't bring you any financial stress. When you lose that amount, get up and leave. You'll find yourself leaving as a winner more often.

Let's say you decide $300 is your limit, what you're willing to lose. You're playing craps or blackjack or whatever, and you're up $500 (started with $300 in chips and now have $800). When you drop down to $500 it's time to leave. That's a $300 loss. It doesn't matter that you're still up, overall. What matters is that you decided you would leave when you lost $300. So it's time to leave. You can either go home or go to another table. If you go home you'll be leaving a winner, up $200. If you decide to stay and just play a different table, then your new loss limit should be the $200 you're up.

You are now playing on the casino's money. If you lose that $200, go home, you're even. It was free entertainment. If you take that 200 (plus your 300, for a total of 500) to another table and get your stack up to $1000, then drop back down to $800, you just lost $200. It's time to make another decision -- go home or go to a different table. If you go home you're a $500 winner, overall. If you decide to stay, never gamble more than the original amount you were willing to lose, which was $300.

Using this strategy gives you the best chance of leaving with more money than you started with, or leaving even, or worse case leaving $300 down or whatever amount you originally decided you could comfortably afford to lose. You'll enjoy casino gambling more because of this.
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
If I were pissed at myself fairly often because of bad play, I'd quit playing. Lol

I believe Fargorate is the best way to estimate skill level among players. But I also believe it's a rough estimation tool. It works great if players are involved in a lot of fargorate events outside of their own league. This makes it possible for a 600 in Hongkong to be equivalent to a 600 in West Virgina. We have several players that play in a lot of Fargorate events, and their ratings range between 630 and 670. They are good players, but locally in the league they are not in the top 5 when you look at the stats. Why not? How can a 605 player consistently rank at the top when it comes to total games won and total points accumulated?

It's because the fargo system is designed to be used across a wide range of players, from all leagues, where players from different leagues have opportunities to play each other. This balances out the numbers. For players who primarily stick to in-house league play, don't venture out to compete with other fargorated players, the system isn't all that accurate. It's more of an in-house pecking order system for us. The funny thing is, according to Fargorate I should get 3 games on the wire racing to 9 against most of my gambling buddies, the ones who actually go out and play in fargorated tournaments and have fargorates in the 630's and 640's. They can't give me 3 games on the wire.

Maybe it's due to the league format, 5 games per week against 5 different players. One week you might play a bunch of 400's and win all 5 games. The next week you play all 600's. You break and run out one game, break dry and watch your next opponent run out, then sit and watch your next 3 opponents break and run out on you. You win 1 out of 5. The following week you play a group of 500's and lose a game to a player that has never beaten you, but his fargorate is 100 points lower so your rate comes down based on this one game. The system just doesn't work as well in that single game type of league format. But it's still the best rating system out there, especially for those who travel around and compete more with other players in fargorate events.

I think you're right about league play. Lot's of factors come in on a five game over a couple hours week night that aren't there in a one on one match. This is why the top fargo players often aren't at the very top of the standings.

And there are a lot of sub skill sets that come in to Fargo ratings too. I have played in large tournaments divided by fargo against players that shot so straight I almost couldn't believe they were rated about the same as I am. Then as time wore on they made mistakes that offset their raw ball pocketing ability and sure enough we played pretty even on the wire.

And if Fargo says for them to give you three on the wire and you outrun it then it's as it should be. It's supposed to allow you to win half the time or so.

Agree 100% fargo's the best we have had to date.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's why it's called gambling. The trick is knowing when to leave. It's hard to quit when you're winning, and even harder when you're losing. It takes discipline. The best thing to do is to pick an amount you're willing to lose, an amount you can afford to lose that won't bring you any financial stress. When you lose that amount, get up and leave. You'll find yourself leaving as a winner more often.

Let's say you decide $300 is your limit, what you're willing to lose. You're playing craps or blackjack or whatever, and you're up $500 (started with $300 in chips and now have $800). When you drop down to $500 it's time to leave. That's a $300 loss. It doesn't matter that you're still up, overall. What matters is that you decided you would leave when you lost $300. So it's time to leave. You can either go home or go to another table. If you go home you'll be leaving a winner, up $200. If you decide to stay and just play a different table, then your new loss limit should be the $200 you're up.

You are now playing on the casino's money. If you lose that $200, go home, you're even. It was free entertainment. If you take that 200 (plus your 300, for a total of 500) to another table and get your stack up to $1000, then drop back down to $800, you just lost $200. It's time to make another decision -- go home or go to a different table. If you go home you're a $500 winner, overall. If you decide to stay, never gamble more than the original amount you were willing to lose, which was $300.

Using this strategy gives you the best chance of leaving with more money than you started with, or leaving even, or worse case leaving $300 down or whatever amount you originally decided you could comfortably afford to lose. You'll enjoy casino gambling more because of this.

Yes, there is more than one way to manage your bankroll, but all the good methods recommend making these decisions before entering the casino.

No pattern of play or money management method is going to make anyone profitable at a casino. If your friend's book is sold on the idea that he can help you maximize your win during a hot streak then I've got no problem with it. If he implies that his method will allow you to beat the odds and come away a winner more often than not, then it is unethical, IMO. I'm not saying he is doing that, but these kinds of books tend to give that impression.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, there is more than one way to manage your bankroll, but all the good methods recommend making these decisions before entering the casino.

No pattern of play or money management method is going to make anyone profitable at a casino. If your friend's book is sold on the idea that he can help you maximize your win during a hot streak then I've got no problem with it. If he implies that his method will allow you to beat the odds and come away a winner more often than not, then it is unethical, IMO. I'm not saying he is doing that, but these kinds of books tend to give that impression.

I understand. His book is simply about the best way to play craps in order to maximize winning rolls and minimize inevitable losses. It's smart play, not miracle play. Lol. By following the strategy, including strict discipline on when to leave the table, you will find yourself leaving the casino with money in your pocket more often, sometimes up, sometimes even, or sometimes down, but no more than you planned on losing.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I understand. His book is simply about the best way to play craps in order to maximize winning rolls and minimize inevitable losses. It's smart play, not miracle play. Lol. By following the strategy, including strict discipline on when to leave the table, you will find yourself leaving the casino with money in your pocket more often, sometimes up, sometimes even, or sometimes down, but no more than you planned on losing.

Having said all that, it really is amazing what happens at a craps table on a hot streak. Stacks of black chips everywhere. Lots of drunken hootin' and hollerin'. Generally a lot of fun, especially when the pit crew starts getting nervous.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm in Clearwater FL this week on vacation. First off, it's a beautiful place to visit, highly recommended. Anyhow, while here I wanted to meet a fellow AZer and hit some balls around. Anytime I'm out town I like to visit local poolhalls and play a little pool, usually by myself unless someone comes over and asks if I'm looking to play for money. This time I reached out to Cookieman, Dave Stem, since he lives in this area. I figured Dave was a good player, and I had no doubts he would be good company in person.

Long story short.....he brought game and I didn't. We played 9ball, one hole, and 8ball, and had some good conversation. It was all friendly, no gambling. In the 9ball we broke even, each winning 9 games. Then we switched to one pocket, which is my favorite game. It's the first time in a long while that I've played one pocket with no money on the line, and I'm glad for it. Dave is very good player and doesn't make many mistakes. I couldn't do anything right, or anything smart. He beat me about 7 or 8 in a row before I finally won 2 games.

I was struggling for sure, and the harder I tried the worse I played. There are plenty of excuses I could use....lack of sleep, food, etc.... or the absence of money on the line... But truth is, Dave played well and I did not.

After winning 2 one pocket games in a row, I figured switching to 8ball might kick me into gear. I figured wrong. Can't remember the last time I got beat 5-0. I had opportunities to run racks that would normally be gimmies, and I flubbed them up in one way another each time. Regardless, I had a good time and learned exactly what I thought I'd learn.... Dave is a great guy and he can play pool. I wish I had played better, but shit happens. Good shoot'n Cookieman. :thumbup:

Thanks Brian. It was fun meeting up and hitting balls with a fellow AZer. Also good to put a face to the guy that wrote Poolology. Hope you all had a great trip. I'm sure you will be back in the future, how can you not be considering the great way your brother proposed to his girlfriend.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks Brian. It was fun meeting up and hitting balls with a fellow AZer. Also good to put a face to the guy that wrote Poolology. Hope you all had a great trip. I'm sure you will be back in the future, how can you not be considering the great way your brother proposed to his girlfriend.


It was a great trip! Not sure why I bothered bringing a pool cue, considering how I played. But I'll come back down there again. It's a beautiful place with good people.
 
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