8-Ball rule question!

I am not versed in WPA rules specifically, but I am fairly confident that this situation is not a foul, and control will simply pass from you to your opponent. As long as you've called a safety, made contact with your chosen group of balls first, and create a legal shot afterwards (reaching a rail with any ball or pocketing any ball other than the 8), control will pass without a foul.

To the best of my understanding, during a normal shot (i.e. not the break, not the last ball), as long as (1) you hit one of your balls, (2) any ball hits a rail after you hit your ball, and (3) you don't scratch or pocket the 8, the shot isn't a foul. Whatever happens during the shot is of no importance.

As a matter of fact, I routinely pocket opponents' balls during games. For instance, if the opponent has a ball hanging by a foot corner pocket, the 8 near the opposite foot corner pocket, all his remaining balls near the head, my balls in the way, and it's obvious he's going to use the hanging ball for easy position on the 8, I'll try my best to pocket it after pocketing one of mine and make him sweat for position on the 8.

There is however a very grey area, that of intended fouls. Sometimes when I'm really, REALLY VERY stuck and anything I may do will give my opponent ball in end for an easy kill, I will call foul and execute the foul to send the opponent's ball somewhere nasty. However, I believe it is considered unsportsmanship, so it's really for desperate situations, and I make a point of apologizing profusely and to not do it again for the rest of the tournament. Sometimes I just pass up that option altogether if the guy I play seems edgy, finicky on the rules, or just plain too excited. But one thing I don't do is make it appear to try something legal when in fact I'm playing the foul. At least I'm upfront with my intentions in those cases.

bwtadpole said:

i am not versed in wpa rules specifically, but i am fairly confident that this situation is not a foul, and control will simply pass from you to your opponent. As long as you've called a safety, made contact with your chosen group of balls first, and create a legal shot afterwards (reaching a rail with any ball or pocketing any ball other than the 8), control will pass without a foul.

Click to expand...

Ding! Ding!

Bob Jewett said:

One way to go about answering the question (A: no foul) is to look at the list of fouls in 8-ball in the rules. If a shot contains no fouls, then it is not a foul shot. The list if fairly short. See http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_8ball#3.9 Here is the list:

The following are standard fouls at eight ball:

6.1 Cue Ball Scratch or off the Table
6.2 Wrong Ball First
6.3 No Rail after Contact
6.4 No Foot on Floor
6.5 Ball Driven off the Table (See 3.7 Spotting Balls.)
6.6 Touched Ball
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
6.8 Push Shot
6.9 Balls Still Moving
6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement
6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
6.12 Cue Stick on the Table
6.13 Playing out of Turn
6.15 Slow Play ​

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So... --to change the subject a bit

You're playing 8-ball by the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League, breaking in a key hill-hill game. Though you are a stronger player, your opponent is a strong player who runs out a lot. Your break hasn't been working. You move the cueball around thinking about switching spots once again, worrying about coming up dry, when it occurs to you that you can outmove your opponent.

So you switch gears and go for a soft break. Four balls hit a rail. You do not make a ball, and you do not scratch.

Your opponent says "foul."

Why?

Would it be that it wasn't their turn?

mikepage said:

So... --to change the subject a bit

You're playing 8-ball by the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League, breaking in a key hill-hill game. Though you are a stronger player, your opponent is a strong player who runs out a lot. Your break hasn't been working. You move the cueball around thinking about switching spots once again, worrying about coming up dry, when it occurs to you that you can outmove your opponent.

So you switch gears and go for a soft break. Four balls hit a rail. You do not make a ball, and you do not scratch.

Your opponent says "foul."

Why?

Click to expand...

You have to annouce that you are safety breaking so a official or ref. can be present to make sure it was a legal break.

Buckster_uk said:

Hi

Playing WPA 8-Ball rules:

When calling a "safety", are you allowed to contact your ball first which in turn hits one of your opponents ball into the pocket? Does control then pass or is this a foul and ball in hand for your opponent?

I know that if intending to pocket one of your balls into a pocket and an opponents ball is inadvertantly pocketed, control passes (no foul), but as you are deliberately pocketing your opponents ball in the safety shot, I am not sure if the rules are different in this respect?


Thanks

Click to expand...

This is not a foul and it's a perfectly legitimate (and sometimes smart) strategy.

pj
chgo

Buckster_uk said:

Hi

Playing WPA 8-Ball rules:

When calling a "safety", are you allowed to contact your ball first which in turn hits one of your opponents ball into the pocket? Does control then pass or is this a foul and ball in hand for your opponent?

I know that if intending to pocket one of your balls into a pocket and an opponents ball is inadvertantly pocketed, control passes (no foul), but as you are deliberately pocketing your opponents ball in the safety shot, I am not sure if the rules are different in this respect?


Thanks

Click to expand...

Its also legal shot without calling a safety.

Official BCAPL info...

To expand on the answers here (sorry to jump the discussion and ruin your fun Mike), a little additional info.

First, as always, when people start mixing WSR and BCAPL rules in the same thread, I feel the obligation to point out that they are two separate sets of rules, though that fact seems to be routinely lost on rules threads.

The complete answer to Mike's question (as already observed LMB) is that current BCAPL Rule 2.3.2 requires (in 8-Ball) the breaker to notify their opponent if they intend to break softly, and specifies that failure to do so is a foul.

A little history might be in order here. The original BCAPL rule (from 1 June 07) concerning the 8-Ball break was that "soft" breaks were entirely illegal. Recognizing that it was impossible to enforce as a practical matter, the rule was changed in '08 to its current form, but without a penalty specified. Then the sentence specifying the penalty was added 01 June 09.

However, enforcement is still a problem, particularly if the break is not witnessed by a referee. Without using undue, burdensome and unreasonably restrictive language, there is simply no way to define a "soft break"

Which brings us to the present. Instead of deleting the rule altogether in '09, it was left in to accomplish one purpose – to give your opponent the opportunity (and encourage them) to call a referee to watch the break. It is too common for a referee to be called to a table to settle an argument about whether four balls got to a cushion, which cannot be decided unless it is actually seen. Simply put the rule is there in an attempt to minimize that occurrence.

The BCAPL office is aware of the difficulties that may be encountered in effectively and fairly enforcing the rule. As we speak, they are considering softening the penalty slightly to a warning for the first offense. I have no feel for how that discussion will end up, but both the BCAPL and I will keep you posted when that decision is made.

And as always, Rule 1.1 applies so BCAPL players should pay attention and stay informed.:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.

tatcat2000 a soft break would be a break where 4 balls barly hit the cusions(8-ball)?

Thanks

tingen said:

tatcat2000 a soft break would be a break where 4 balls barly hit the cusions(8-ball)?

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As I stated in the previous post, and the reason I repeatedly put the word "soft" in quotes, is precisely because there really is no definition. Which is why there is potential difficulty in enforcement wirh respect to BCAPL 2.3.2.

Strictly concerning a potential "definition", as a matter of experience we know that anyone who breaks softly in 8-Ball is almost certainly attempting to force a prolonged defensive game, so they try to move as few balls as possible. Therefore, it is not a completely unfair inference that they desire to move only the minimum number of balls to a cushion. In other words, a person might be tempted, as tingen is above, to want to define (or ask about) a "soft" break as being an attempt to do just that.

As a practical matter of enforcement, however, such a definition does not work. There are just too many variables (differences in players, racks, and cushions; miscues, cloth, humidity, whether it is Tuesday and snowing, etc., etc., etc.) to achieve any acceptable level of consistency in enforcement.

Simply put, the referee comes to the table after the fact. Player B says "Player A broke soft and didn't tell me. Foul". Player A says "No I didn't - that was __________________" (fill in the blank with: a normal break; a miscue; I hiccupped/sneezed/coughed; softer than normal but not so soft as to tell Player B about it; whatever else.) The fact of the matter is that the referee CANNOT, simply from looking at the table, make a determination as to whether or not Player A was attempting a soft break and was therefore required to notify their opponent under BCAPL 2.3.2.

In the end, it is important to note again that the BCAPL is NOT trying to suppress soft breaking. They simply want to ensure, especially in a setting of non-refereed matches, that a player in the chair has the guaranteed opportunity to have a referee watch the break carefully to make sure that the break is legal. Nothing more.

See the previous post again for notes on possible changes to come concerning enforcement/penalties. Until then, remember BCAPL Rule 1.1, and be sure to tell your opponent if you don't intend to give the rack a ride in BCAPL play.

More than you wanted I'm sure, tingen, but that is the curse of proper attention to the rules.:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.

:grin-square: