Does construction technique for CF shafts ensure extremely uniform wall thickness, density, etc.? Seems to me that might matter - does it?
Thanks in advance...
pj
chgo
Thanks in advance...
pj
chgo
CF Shafts - Wall Thickness Uniformity?
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
On a "tapered" CF shaft, is the thickness of the "wall" the same at the ferrule as it is throughout the length of the shaft until it gets to the joint, or does the thickness increase all the way down?
And if not, is the change gradual? How much control is there over wall thickness over the shaft's length?
Haven't heard of any issues...
pj
chgo
That is the answer I am seeking, too.
I have three carbon fiber shafts and had a fourth. The one I don't have anymore seemed to have more of a "pinging" sound sometime than the three I still have. The ones I still have are all Becue shafts.
I don't know why the other shaft had the "pinging". I'm thinking it had something to do with the way it was constructed. My Becue shafts are "quiet".
It can be but depends on how much time, effort and equipment investment the maker puts into it and how important they think uniform wall is. I've not been in a CF cue shop but have seen several very different processes for what look to most of us like similar composite golf shafts.
Sent from the future.
Sent from the future.
Same experience with me Becue versus Revo, the Becue is solid sounding and feeling and penetrates the cue ball. Revo feels like a Predator, hollow and light against the cue ball. I believe Predator stuck with their lower weight/less squirt technique and my assumption is the shaft is thinner than Becue at the end, resulting in a hollow feel. I assume Revo squirts less than Becue as well, although I feel like my shafts are pretty reasonably low squirt.
When Alessandro from Becue described the production process to me, I can see where uniformity might be difficult to achieve, but primarily on the outer side of the shaft. The shafts can't be turned and sanded to make them round. The machines have to precisely layer the fiber to create uniform thickness, or the tube won't be round.
Here's a general description of the carbon fiber tube building process. It's quite complicated and nothing like I thought. The process Alessandro described to me sounded like #2, filament winding, but that was at the beginning and they may be using another process by now.
https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/blog/4-methods-for-producing-composite-tubing/
Very interesting - thanks.
I wonder if there's any shaping done (or possible) after forming and curing...?
pj
chgo
I would love to get Alessandro on here to discuss this. Maybe we can get him to join.
He said categorically they would not sand the shafts because of toxicity of the dust. I was a very early customer. The first shaft was painted white and did not roll straight. It had a slight roll out and I sent the whole cue back to Italy (they paid for it). They analyzed the shaft and sent me a new one. They discontinued the white shafts because the paint nicked up too easily and was on the sticky side. They sorted out their manufacturing process to produce consistent straight, round shafts. The quality now is absolutely first rate.
I now have two white 5.1 shafts (12 mm tip, conical taper) , a black one Prime M which is their "pro taper" - a 12 mm tip with really long skinny taper, and another black one on order in 5.1 conical taper.
The Prime M with a very long straight pro taper, I don't love it, but that's just me. It has a little too much flex for me and I get unexpected action on the cue ball on some power shots. I prefer stiff shafts. I ordered a 5.1 Prime M in black to see if I should make the switch from white to black, for the sake of durability, because the white paint is fragile, but I love sighting down the stark white shaft. My long game has improved with the white shaft but I guess they have problems coloring CF so that's an issue.
I'll see if Alessandro - who is a really nice guy and very knowledgeable - might join here to help with the technical discussions.
I really doubt we will ever know. First, I wonder how many companies are actually making their own "blanks"? Probably only the big boys. All the custom and smaller makers that sprung up are probably buying them.
Next, there might be many different methods of making the tubes. I think this is so new to the cue world, that Predator and Cuetech are probably keeping that info close to the vest, just a guess on my end.
Finally, even if the big boys showed detailed videos or pictures of their manufacturing process, unless they cut open many shafts, measured the wall thickness at various points, and shared the statistics of that data, we will never know.
Its like asking how many ferrule tenons are concentric with the OD of the shaft. Or how many forearm joining screws in the butt of the cue are concentric to the OD of the butt. No way to know how controlled the process is, without cutting up a bunch of cues and measuring.
Next, there might be many different methods of making the tubes. I think this is so new to the cue world, that Predator and Cuetech are probably keeping that info close to the vest, just a guess on my end.
Finally, even if the big boys showed detailed videos or pictures of their manufacturing process, unless they cut open many shafts, measured the wall thickness at various points, and shared the statistics of that data, we will never know.
Its like asking how many ferrule tenons are concentric with the OD of the shaft. Or how many forearm joining screws in the butt of the cue are concentric to the OD of the butt. No way to know how controlled the process is, without cutting up a bunch of cues and measuring.
I would venture to say that most, not all, CF shafts are made in China.
A friend of mine(also a cuemaker), has tried to work with 4 different companies in China to develop a shaft to his specs. The specs are very reasonable to achieve but quality control is, or so it seems,hard to find in China.
The shafts can be sanded but as a previous poster mentioned the dust is toxic. Even wood dust especially certain imported woods can be toxic to your skin and lungs.
I believe he may have finally found a supplier in China but, of course, is not forthcoming as to the name of the manufacturer.
On most of the samples I looked at the tube thickness was fairly consistent but straightness and exterior smoothness was all over the place.
A friend of mine(also a cuemaker), has tried to work with 4 different companies in China to develop a shaft to his specs. The specs are very reasonable to achieve but quality control is, or so it seems,hard to find in China.
The shafts can be sanded but as a previous poster mentioned the dust is toxic. Even wood dust especially certain imported woods can be toxic to your skin and lungs.
I believe he may have finally found a supplier in China but, of course, is not forthcoming as to the name of the manufacturer.
On most of the samples I looked at the tube thickness was fairly consistent but straightness and exterior smoothness was all over the place.
How many of the above CF shaft "experts" have ever played on TV. YouTube doesn't count.
I am surprised by your negativity in a technical discussion. Please explain. You just assume we are bad players? 5 o'clock somewhere?
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Whenever you are dealing with anything manufactured, you will have variations. +/-, etc. Not a knock, just a fact. With CF shafts, you will also find that most all of them, have a "spine." What that essentially means, is that at some point within the shafts alignment, there is a plane at which that particular shaft, will perform the most consistent, or repeatable. Professional golfers, and golf club shaft manufacturers have known this for years, which is why a large number of them have their shafts spine aligned. In the golf shaft industry, it's known as shaft puring, or pure-ing. Hope this helps.
That is true of flag-wrapped shafts. Almost all(golf) shafts now are filament wound and these are virtually spine-free. The REVO is filament-wound but i'm not sure of other shafts.
I thought the question was about manufacturing variation, not Fargo ratingsHow many of the above CF shaft "experts" have ever played on TV. YouTube doesn't count.
Sent from the future.
WTF does that have to do with anything??How many of the above CF shaft "experts" have ever played on TV. YouTube doesn't count.
In golf shafts the big end is stronger due to diameter so its thinner than at the tip end. I would think a pool shaft would be much the came. Pool shaft isn't stressed like a golf shaft but i bet the tip end still has thicker walls.
Could you post a pic of the shafts, curious to see them. Thanks
Sure, here are the pics. The picture is a little deceiving. The white 5.1 shafts are no as thick as they appear and the black prime M not as thin. But you can clearly see the taper difference. I have always preferred a stiffer, conical taper. Some players love the long, slender taper.
I just ordered the 5.1 in black - I think that's going to be perfect if I can get used to the color. I also found touch up paint for the white shafts online and ordered one of their factory two piece extensions.
I realize with a Fargo Rating of 630 I am not qualified to talk about this. I'll work on my game (spray tan and belly) a bit to see if I can get on TV, then I'll ask Panjit if i am qualified to discuss this. But it did feel good to deal a little red rep for once.
This is a fantastic cue. I retired all my wooden shafts after adjusting to this. Like the difference between an LED and CRT.
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