Trouble with extreme right or left English...

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is impossible to put side force on a ball without some degree of squirt. Therefore you are saying that no shot can be shot with sidespin. There is a reason I quit trying to make sense of your nonsense.



While you play around on a computer thousands of people happily pocket balls using parallel offset. I think you need to get your head out of your "ivory tower" and over a pool table. You might just learn something though you would never admit it.



Hu



Just to be clear...

So there is a “shot line”. This is the line from the resting spot of the cueball to the location it will be at impact. With a centerball hit, this will be a straight line.

Now are you claiming that people can, say for right English, move their whole cue over say a tip or 2 distance, keeping it parallel to the shot line? And pocket balls?

KMRUNOUT


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KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lol



I operate off of common sense, the way of the high IQ. To put it another way, your fkin hands are in line. At least the parts of your hands that are wrapped around the cue.



No offense, but I’d really bet on PJ in an IQ competition. Most times I hear the term “common sense”, it typically is an attempt to disparage information that the person doesn’t understand.

You can *always* draw a straight line between your two hands. The important question is how that line relates to another line of interest, say the shot line for example. Right now I’m typing this message on my phone. My hands are perfectly in line, about 3” apart. Turns out that line is roughly parallel to the floor. If I stood very square to the opposite wall, it might be pretty close to parallel with that too.

Word to the wise: if you want to tout your own IQ, maybe think through the stuff that doesn’t make sense to you first.

KMRUNOUT


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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
sidespin

For me personally, I just put spin on the ball and try to shoot it in.

I don't deliberately use back hand english. I just look at the contact point, then pick a tip placement and aim line that will send the cue ball there using feel and experience. I guess it's true that the cue line isn't parallel with the shot line since the cue ball is deflecting. However if I know I need to aim, say, and inch to the right of the true contact point to allow for deflection, then I'm aiming straight at that point with side spin.

That isn't my point of focus though. I'm feeling the cue ball deflect off my cue tip towards the true contact point. I guess it would be like kicking a soccer ball. Instead of kicking it straight forward with my toe, I'm kicking it diagonally with the inside of my foot. Same with the cue stick. I'm shooting the cue ball with the edge of my tip diagonally (compared to the cue stick line) towards the contact point.

All said, this takes no time and no conscious thought, and I spin the balls with a lot of confidence and comfort.

Now, I am not against BHE, pivot points, and stuff like that. But like aiming systems that need to bake in throw and different variables, it seems like you'll always need to take into account elevation, speed of hit, etc. This doesn't mean it can't be useful, the way kicking systems can be very useful even if they are table specific. But if someone can get great results just by visualization, I wouldn't think they are missing out by not using these other approaches.

Anyway, I'm hoping Geno can respond to his original post and shift the conversation back towards the question at hand. Does anyone notice a difference between left and right spin? It sounds like most people are saying they don't notice that difference. I mentioned I play good on both sides of the ball but acknowledge there might be a slight preference. Am I the only one?
 

JazzyJeff87

AzB Plutonium Member
Silver Member
No offense, but I’d really bet on PJ in an IQ competition. Most times I hear the term “common sense”, it typically is an attempt to disparage information that the person doesn’t understand.

You can *always* draw a straight line between your two hands. The important question is how that line relates to another line of interest, say the shot line for example. Right now I’m typing this message on my phone. My hands are perfectly in line, about 3” apart. Turns out that line is roughly parallel to the floor. If I stood very square to the opposite wall, it might be pretty close to parallel with that too.

Word to the wise: if you want to tout your own IQ, maybe think through the stuff that doesn’t make sense to you first.

KMRUNOUT



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I think the pool study-ers May sometimes addle their brains with all these lines and this and that.

I don’t know pj so I can’t say my IQ is higher than his, only that it’s high.

You go ahead with whatever it is you’re doing over there. I’ll watch and smile as I do
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I prefer my line of sight as well as my stance to be in line with the actual contact point on the object ball. All of my adjustments are made with varying amounts of bh and fh adjustments. Only for the utmost extremes of English will I adjust my stance slightly.

It never made sense to me to align to anything other than the final contact point. That's just how I see it though. Whatever gets the job done.
I like looking straight along the cue. It lets me monitor my stroke and gives me something visible to aim with - by pointing it an estimated distance from the OB contact point with squirt/swerve correction.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Does anyone notice a difference between left and right spin? It sounds like most people are saying they don't notice that difference. I mentioned I play good on both sides of the ball but acknowledge there might be a slight preference. Am I the only one?
I've tried to notice a difference while practicing, but couldn't, even though (or maybe because?) I have pretty strong eye dominance.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I seem to shoot just as bad regardless of where my tip goes on the cue ball
but I think evaluating this can be deceptive
how many players out there even use all of the cue ball some of the time
let alone enough to accurately gauge where their skill level truly rests
that said, we have what we have
how often will a player shoot a backwards cut with inside, anyway?
I'm just thinking out loud (again)
but is it a coincidence to be a righty, and prefer hitting the right side of the cue ball
on the right side of the table?
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Right now I’m typing this message on my phone. My hands are perfectly in line, about 3” apart. Turns out that line is roughly parallel to the floor. If I stood very square to the opposite wall, it might be pretty close to parallel with that too.

If you hold your phone perfectly in line as you did, squirt will not be an issue,
..........
unless of course you are watching porn...….. :eek:
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me personally, I just put spin on the ball and try to shoot it in.



I don't deliberately use back hand english. I just look at the contact point, then pick a tip placement and aim line that will send the cue ball there using feel and experience. I guess it's true that the cue line isn't parallel with the shot line since the cue ball is deflecting. However if I know I need to aim, say, and inch to the right of the true contact point to allow for deflection, then I'm aiming straight at that point with side spin.



That isn't my point of focus though. I'm feeling the cue ball deflect off my cue tip towards the true contact point. I guess it would be like kicking a soccer ball. Instead of kicking it straight forward with my toe, I'm kicking it diagonally with the inside of my foot. Same with the cue stick. I'm shooting the cue ball with the edge of my tip diagonally (compared to the cue stick line) towards the contact point.



All said, this takes no time and no conscious thought, and I spin the balls with a lot of confidence and comfort.



Now, I am not against BHE, pivot points, and stuff like that. But like aiming systems that need to bake in throw and different variables, it seems like you'll always need to take into account elevation, speed of hit, etc. This doesn't mean it can't be useful, the way kicking systems can be very useful even if they are table specific. But if someone can get great results just by visualization, I wouldn't think they are missing out by not using these other approaches.



Anyway, I'm hoping Geno can respond to his original post and shift the conversation back towards the question at hand. Does anyone notice a difference between left and right spin? It sounds like most people are saying they don't notice that difference. I mentioned I play good on both sides of the ball but acknowledge there might be a slight preference. Am I the only one?
I don't feel or have a preference for sides.

Any explanation of what I'm doing is simply reverse engineering what I do by feel. In hind sight I understand what I am doing by using such terminology. When I'm shooting I don't think too much about it. Unless I need to, but usually not actively.

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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think this may be grade school geometry now

Just to be clear...

So there is a “shot line”. This is the line from the resting spot of the cueball to the location it will be at impact. With a centerball hit, this will be a straight line.

Now are you claiming that people can, say for right English, move their whole cue over say a tip or 2 distance, keeping it parallel to the shot line? And pocket balls?

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums


Absolutely, and you know it too. If we call the line we shoot the cue ball down with no english the target line, that is the most common frame of reference almost everyone uses. Can I move the tip over and keep it absolutely parallel in the horizontal plane and pocket the ball? Sure, adjust speed so that swerve and squirt cancel each other out for that particular shot, no slight angle corrections needed.

What we usually do if we use any form of side is also make a slight adjustment to correct our target path so that it intersects the target line at the object ball.

So, we can correct with speed, we can correct with tiny adjustments to the cue stick. This is required with all forms of side to arrive at a point on the target line and at the object ball at the same time. That point on the object ball needs a designation so lets call it point P. Point T will be where we hit the cue ball. Point T can be any contact point but for simplicity lets say it is at one tip of side for this discussion. The only important thing to understand is that we are talking about one point on the cue ball using all forms of side spin or english, whatever term is preferred.

Hopefully we can agree that only one line passes through multiple points on that line. A line is unique and defined by any two points on that line.

Now lets look at back hand english, front hand english, and parallel english. Back hand english pivots at our bridge and our grip hand moves sideways. There is a point on our target line that the cue stick pivots around at our bridge. Call this point A. After the pivot the cue lays on a line AT.

Now lets consider front hand english. The grip stays on the target line, the bridge hand moves. We will call the pivot point on the target line that front hand english moves around point B. This is at the grip hand. The line formed by the cue is line BT.

We have two lines angling across the target line at roughly twelve inches from the tip and fifty inches from the tip. We already have a problem with geometry here, it is impossible for AT and BT to be the same line. The basic theory that all three methods get the cue stick to exactly the same position is already proven false.

A parallel shift is a bit trickier to work with because we now move completely off the original target line. Our grip hand has moved, our bridge has moved, only point T which can have an infinite number of lines through it remains the same. However we will label a point somewhere on the parallel shift line point C and state as a given that point C is neither on the AT or BT line.

Now we have three lines by the much beloved math. AT is not equal to BT is not equal to CT.

A simple proof by math that the cue is not on the same line with front hand, back hand, and parallel english. This is easily discovered on the table if you put some notebook donuts down and use a striped ball to have the same target on the "cue ball", the edge of the line turned vertical. We quickly find that if we hit T on the AT line, the BT line, and the CT line, our math is confirmed. We get different results as has to happen according to the theory and math.

No easy way to draw and no way to get drawings into my computer. When I had CAD I could have drawn this in less time than it takes to type it. Easier for you to test on the table than to work through the logic since I had to go into painful detail using only text. It is really as simple as if you pivot off of the original target line in different places it has to create different lines. Also some basic geometry that a parallel shift will create a different line than a pivot.

Hu

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
every form of competition

Am rt. handed and rt. eye dominant. Can honestly say this has never been an issue and in fact i've never even thought about it til this thread. It seems to me that there are a LOT of people that WAY overthink playing this game. Whether its aiming, deflection, applying spin, whatever. Its not rocket science. See the shot, shoot the shot. Pool is as much(if not more) art than science. Just my $.02, nothing more.




I have competed at many things. Over and over I got my butt kicked by people that didn't understand a fraction of the technical background behind what they were doing that I did, they just knew how to do it. If computer time took away from table time for me I would never be seen here or very very rarely. Knowing how to do something always trumps knowing why it works.

I might have been tempted to tell some of those grand old gentlemen of the sport they were doing something wrong if they weren't kicking my butt so thoroughly! One that had an almost illiterate persona on the forum was a surprise. I greatly respected his niche knowledge so I hadn't embarrassed myself in the years before I learned he was the head of a school at an Ivy League University!

Hu
 

grindz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice posts Hu!

I don't notice a difference from right to left, probably because I have just
learned to adjust over time based on what works..... but I'll guess that anyone
that is having the OP's scenario is keeping their head neutral without moving it
and a dominant eye is distorting the view??:scratchhead:

td
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
funny when I basically stayed away twenty years.

I don't notice a difference from right to left, probably because I have just
learned to adjust over time based on what works..... but I'll guess that anyone
that is having the OP's scenario is keeping their head neutral without moving it
and a dominant eye is distorting the view??:scratchhead:

td


Seems odd but as a youngster until in my twenties I favored cutting to my left, when I came back after decades away I favor cutting to my right. I am right eye dominant.

Side spin, I don't notice a difference either. I think a lot of it is just HAMB, after hitting all the shots so many times we don't care a whole lot what is easiest. I will buy lunch next time but I was practicing with my niece for the first time ever a few months ago. When I set up to back cut a shot into the side pocket she didn't think I could do it and bet lunch. Cane's chicken tenders? That was like George Foreman and cheese burgers. Drilled it!

When Gene gets back involved he will get this thread on track or he might be better off to abandon it and start over.

Hu
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Absolutely, and you know it too. If we call the line we shoot the cue ball down with no english the target line, that is the most common frame of reference almost everyone uses. Can I move the tip over and keep it absolutely parallel in the horizontal plane and pocket the ball? Sure, adjust speed so that swerve and squirt cancel each other out for that particular shot, no slight angle corrections needed.

What we usually do if we use any form of side is also make a slight adjustment to correct our target path so that it intersects the target line at the object ball.

So, we can correct with speed, we can correct with tiny adjustments to the cue stick. This is required with all forms of side to arrive at a point on the target line and at the object ball at the same time. That point on the object ball needs a designation so lets call it point P. Point T will be where we hit the cue ball. Point T can be any contact point but for simplicity lets say it is at one tip of side for this discussion. The only important thing to understand is that we are talking about one point on the cue ball using all forms of side spin or english, whatever term is preferred.

Hopefully we can agree that only one line passes through multiple points on that line. A line is unique and defined by any two points on that line.

Now lets look at back hand english, front hand english, and parallel english. Back hand english pivots at our bridge and our grip hand moves sideways. There is a point on our target line that the cue stick pivots around at our bridge. Call this point A. After the pivot the cue lays on a line AT.

Now lets consider front hand english. The grip stays on the target line, the bridge hand moves. We will call the pivot point on the target line that front hand english moves around point B. This is at the grip hand. The line formed by the cue is line BT.

We have two lines angling across the target line at roughly twelve inches from the tip and fifty inches from the tip. We already have a problem with geometry here, it is impossible for AT and BT to be the same line. The basic theory that all three methods get the cue stick to exactly the same position is already proven false.

A parallel shift is a bit trickier to work with because we now move completely off the original target line. Our grip hand has moved, our bridge has moved, only point T which can have an infinite number of lines through it remains the same. However we will label a point somewhere on the parallel shift line point C and state as a given that point C is neither on the AT or BT line.

Now we have three lines by the much beloved math. AT is not equal to BT is not equal to CT.

A simple proof by math that the cue is not on the same line with front hand, back hand, and parallel english. This is easily discovered on the table if you put some notebook donuts down and use a striped ball to have the same target on the "cue ball", the edge of the line turned vertical. We quickly find that if we hit T on the AT line, the BT line, and the CT line, our math is confirmed. We get different results as has to happen according to the theory and math.

No easy way to draw and no way to get drawings into my computer. When I had CAD I could have drawn this in less time than it takes to type it. Easier for you to test on the table than to work through the logic since I had to go into painful detail using only text. It is really as simple as if you pivot off of the original target line in different places it has to create different lines. Also some basic geometry that a parallel shift will create a different line than a pivot.

Hu

Hu
I agree with all of this, Hu. We must have miscommunicated somewhere back there... maybe this distinction was missed?

My basic assumption is that the same cue can't be on different lines and still produce the same CB direction, spin and speed (the same "shot").

pj
chgo
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
somehow we have a communication barrier

I agree with all of this, Hu. We must have miscommunicated somewhere back there... maybe this distinction was missed?



pj
chgo


pj, for some reason we have a communication barrier. Damned if I know why. It isn't deliberate on my part. We have disagreed on pretty much every point I have made in this post you agree with. I haven't changed my position. Perhaps I spelled it out better here.

Hu
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
pj, for some reason we have a communication barrier. Damned if I know why. It isn't deliberate on my part. We have disagreed on pretty much every point I have made in this post you agree with. I haven't changed my position. Perhaps I spelled it out better here.

Hu
I'll try to remember this next time we "disagree" about something.

pj <- but with my Oldtimers Disease I might need a friendly reminder :)
chgo
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hu...That's true until you want to teach someone else...then you have to know the 'whys' as well as the 'hows'. Asking somebody "how do you do that" and having them respond "Like this" and then demonstrate, does little to help the person trying to learn. You have to be able to communicate the whys, wheres, whens and hows! LOL IMO, that's what make a good teacher...not just execution. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Knowing how to do something always trumps knowing why it works.

Hu
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Knowing how to do something always trumps knowing why it works.

That's true until you want to teach someone else...
Even more than that. Knowing how is obviously necessary while knowing why isn't, but that doesn't mean knowing why is unimportant.

Knowing why can not only speed up learning how to do it, it can also give a deeper, more versatile understanding of how to do it even for those who already can.

pj
chgo
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
a leetle story

Hu...That's true until you want to teach someone else...then you have to know the 'whys' as well as the 'hows'. Asking somebody "how do you do that" and having them respond "Like this" and then demonstrate, does little to help the person trying to learn. You have to be able to communicate the whys, wheres, whens and hows! LOL IMO, that's what make a good teacher...not just execution. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour



Scott,

The old shortstop that gave me what little mentoring I got playing pool never once told me why a shot worked. I just knew how to get the result I wanted on similar shots. One of the smartest men I ever knew sincerely believed in witchcraft. However he was never wrong on what worked while he might be way off base about why. Hell, he might have been right, it might have been witchcraft!

Then there was an advanced pool lesson I was allowed to sit in on for a little while. The instructor was one of the very best. He showed the pro a shot, how it was supposed to work. The pro tried to execute it and failed. The instructor tried, and failed. This went on for ten minutes or so without the ball ever being pocketed. The pro now knew the theory behind the shot, but could not make the shot. Me, the fly on the wall, took away that the shot was too low percentage to bother with and promptly forgot about it!

I don't completely disagree with you, there are times when we need to know why something works so we can apply the theory to other applications. More and more I am learning that black boxing things often works too. When you hit a key on the board in front of you it passes through four layers to get down to ones and zeroes. Then it passes through a theoretical seventeen layers to cross the net. Back through those seventeen layers and a few more for me to see it. I know all of this because it was once my business to know. The person that knows how to push a key and hit submit gets exactly the same result I do!

Hu
 
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