shot selection question for john

Can't answer for john but I dunno how often he checks the forums these days so you might not see a reply for a while. I skipped around to find it on the video and saw it around 11 minutes of CD 2.

Not sure why he prefers one of those balls as a key ball, but he announces that it will be when there are four balls left. The question is... is he announcing it because it's something he really likes as a key ball? Or because he remembered that's how the rack turned out and he's just sort of saying "I end up using one of those balls as my key ball"...

My guess he got a little straight on that upper stripe he shoots just before the 2. To get decent on the ball right below it (let's call it the 10), he maybe had to do kind of a tight stun follow that would leave him only inches from the next ball. So he opted for the more natural roll to the 2, seeing ahead of time that as long as he wasn't stuck on the side rail he can use that 10 to do anything he wants.

I also can't answer for John, but I'll say two things about this position. The first is that none of those balls represents a good key ball, and sometimes this just happens. Sometimes, due to clusters or problem balls earlier in the rack, when you finally get all the balls open you're just not left with a great end pattern. Here, all the balls are open, adjacent, and he has a clear breakshot. The only thing missing is a perfect stop-stop out, but good players can deal with that when they have to.

The other thing is that sometimes even good players don't see the best way to go 100% of the time. In my taped games with Danny, when we'd go over the games later, we were both sometimes surprised with patterns we didn't see. I'm not saying that happened to John here, but I'm just saying that sometimes you have to cut everyone a little slack. It's entirely possible that John will look at this position again, and think to himself, "gee, what the heck WAS I thinking?" Not saying he will; just saying it's possible.

Players who play great patterns don't claim to always play the best route available. What they do, is play the right shot a much higher percentage of the time than do other players. Over time, that really makes a difference. Also, we could all sit and stare at the table for 20 minutes every rack, truly figuring out the absolute best way to shoot the balls off. But there is a trade-off with that and your rhythm.

I'm not saying your question has no merit, by the way. I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that the answer will be, "yeah, I was going through the balls pretty quick and I knew a position like this wouldn't be a problem for me no matter how I took the balls off. I didn't want to expend any energy trying to deal with a problem that wasn't really there."

And then again, it might not be .

- Steve

what steve said

without going back and watching the dvd again im not sure exactly why or how i ran those.

i think what steve wrote pretty much sums it up.some times i will rely on cb control over perfect patterns because im in stroke.it doesnt look pretty but works.

honestly though without watching it i probably rushed things,if i was in a tourney or at 320 or something i would have maybe slowed down.

funny thing is though sometimes my pace gets me into a mess but also is part of the reason ive run the runs i have because i blend,thought ,pace,energy,educated guesses together as best i can and see how things turn out.

i hope that helps with what i was thinking.

also table conditions greatly effect the patterns i play because certain tables are not conducive to certain kill shots,slow roll,boingy rails,etc etc

sausage said:

john:

thanks for the response. but now i'm viewing your other video and have yet another question. :sorry: here you are with what looks like a stop on the 7ball then maybe slight follow on the 2ball down-table and then the 10 off the rail for position on the break-ball. instead, you force follow to get on the 10ball but you hit the 10ball and almost lost the rack. i really didn't expect you to do that. again, however, you pulled it out of the fire with a good shot and position. i was just wondering why you didn't take the other route. it seems from the camera vantage point, so much easier.

Click to expand...

Most players will shy away from the key ball being on the rail like you stated, way too many things can go wrong. I would have gone the route John went, all you have to do is get a resonable shot on the 10 and the 2 has 6 pockets you can shoot it into, much higher precentage to get a good breakshot.

Bill

Marop said:

Most players will shy away from the key ball being on the rail like you stated, way too many things can go wrong. I would have gone the route John went, all you have to do is get a resonable shot on the 10 and the 2 has 6 pockets you can shoot it into, much higher precentage to get a good breakshot.

Bill

Click to expand...

Great Point Bill.

sausage said:

john:

thanks for the response. but now i'm viewing your other video and have yet another question. :sorry: here you are with what looks like a stop on the 7ball then maybe slight follow on the 2ball down-table and then the 10 off the rail for position on the break-ball. instead, you force follow to get on the 10ball but you hit the 10ball and almost lost the rack. i really didn't expect you to do that. again, however, you pulled it out of the fire with a good shot and position. i was just wondering why you didn't take the other route. it seems from the camera vantage point, so much easier.

Click to expand...

Just looking at your image, doesn't the 2 look like a perfect key ball? In other words, if the cue ball was where the 2 ball is now at the end of the rack wouldn't that be a good break? And the 10 gets you on the 2 easy.
Seems logical to me but what do I know?

i agree dennis the 2 is a good key ball but not from where he is now.

shape from where he is now to the ball on the rail (too much movement) where you have a small margin to be correct to get onto the 2 as a key ball.

i think that john played it right in this position !

Steve

stevekur1 said:

i agree dennis the 2 is a good key ball but not from where he is now.

shape from where he is now to the ball on the rail (too much movement) where you have a small margin to be correct to get onto the 2 as a key ball.

i think that john played it right in this position !

Steve

Click to expand...

Steve: I may have misunderstood what you said or what happened on the video. Did you say that the 2 is a good key ball, "but not from where he is now"? Then you said "John played it right in this position!?"

John used the 2 as a key ball. i.e., the ball before the break, right ?

Then if you think John played it right "from where he was now" then he played the 2 as a key ball. If "John played it right" and he used the 2 as a key ball, then why is not the 2 a good key ball from where he is now. .

I don't really like getting on the 10 from the shot now but once you do, the rest is elementary, my dear Watson! I think just follow a little on the shot he has. 10 up top, a little follow. 2 in the side.

I don't know what john did. Maybe he tried to get on top of the 10 and hit it. Both John and Marop get on top of the balls a lot more than me, so there must be something to that approach

I Dont remember how john played it, but this is what i was talking about.

[/IMG]

then there is this, if you like side pocket breaks which i do.....Just ask charlie !

stevekur1 said:

I Dont remember how john played it, but this is what i was talking about.

[/IMG]

then there is this, if you like side pocket breaks which i do.....Just ask charlie !

Click to expand...

Steve: Really neat visual effects and workable patterns but let me ask you this: if, as you say " you really don't remember how John played it" then what did you mean when you said " John played it right "????

Probably what walsh was saying: Get any sort of stop shot on the 2, and you're on the break ball. So my guess is this is what John was trying (3 page layout):

CueTable Help

Next best guess: he wanted to drive the cue ball BELOW the 10, play it in the far corner, and follow to get on the 2 in the side. So he either hit the ball too full or too hard and ran into the 10 instead of getting above or below it.

Possible reasons he didn't play other ways:

- He only had a little angle on the 7. Stunning two rails to get on the 2 in the side looks like it'd need a lot of force. Maybe he felt that kind of position was uncertain without a more natural angle.

- Maybe he didn't like stop on the 7 and playing the long 2 in the corner because it's kind of far from the corner and just a tiny bit missable. It looks like to get perfect he can't just stop on the 7, he has to stun forward a few inches (which sends him a little further away from the ball).

- Maybe he just didn't see anything else because he just saw 2 in the side all day long, because it's such a traditional by-the-book key ball and all he had to go was get a reasonable shot on the 10 to make it work.

dmgwalsh said:

Steve: Really neat visual effects and workable patterns but let me ask you this: if, as you say " you really don't remember how John played it" then what did you mean when you said " John played it right "????

Click to expand...

Dennis,

stop picking on me..... Lol lol


John played it right because he is John schmidt ladies and gents !

I will have to watch the disc another time I guess so I can correct myself, I personally don't like shooting the 10 second from there too many things can go wrong trying to get shape on it. I personally like my first pattern better !

SteveKurtz1

stevekur1 said:

Dennis,

stop picking on me..... Lol lol


John played it right because he is John schmidt ladies and gents !

Click to expand...

I knew it.

I saw your mug on AZBilliards.com. :thumbup2:

http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=7422

Pretty Cool.

exactly

CreeDo said:

Probably what walsh was saying: Get any sort of stop shot on the 2, and you're on the break ball. So my guess is this is what John was trying (3 page layout):

CueTable Help

Next best guess: he wanted to drive the cue ball BELOW the 10, play it in the far corner, and follow to get on the 2 in the side. So he either hit the ball too full or too hard and ran into the 10 instead of getting above or below it.

Possible reasons he didn't play other ways:

- He only had a little angle on the 7. Stunning two rails to get on the 2 in the side looks like it'd need a lot of force. Maybe he felt that kind of position was uncertain without a more natural angle.

- Maybe he didn't like stop on the 7 and playing the long 2 in the corner because it's kind of far from the corner and just a tiny bit missable. It looks like to get perfect he can't just stop on the 7, he has to stun forward a few inches (which sends him a little further away from the ball).

- Maybe he just didn't see anything else because he just saw 2 in the side all day long, because it's such a traditional by-the-book key ball and all he had to go was get a reasonable shot on the 10 to make it work.

Click to expand...

you summed up my thoughts exactly.
was playing above the 10 but the balls were freshly waxed and new cloth so topspin was taking bigtime and i misjudged the hit.
anyway the 2 for keyball was the best option so i played it that way. just hit a bad shot off 7 but that happens.


anyway you noticed the correct reasons i didnt go the other ways mentioned. they all could have worked but normally there is 3 or 4 options with one usually being better. i feel i chose the best one just didnt execute perfect but that happens. its nice that anybody even cares enough to discuss the best patterns anyway. thats cool with me

Now I know

Like Steve said, we are often surprised at the things we missed when we reviewed our games. I wondered why he keeps offering me a cup with pencils.