learning a skill

bbb said:

in other threads there were some discussions about "the zone"
and if you can do something very well and not think about it
well here is a model of learning i found on the web.
according to this model
the most advanced stage is when you have internalized a skill to the point you dont need to think about it
your thoughts?
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This thing is a simple, powerful model of human learning and personal development. According to the model, our competencies develop in 4 stages:

Unconscious Incompetence – you don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know. This is the stage when you are not aware of your flaws or specific areas where you can improve.
Conscious Incompetence – you still don’t know, but at least you know that you don’t know. This is the stage when you’ve realized your flaws or specific areas where you can improve.
Conscious Competence – you know, as long as you practice consciously. This is the stage when you have discovered how to improve, the specific changes you need to make, and you practice them consciously.
Unconscious Competence – you know, without even thinking about it. This is the stage when you have practiced something so much that it became automatic and you now do it naturally.

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REPOST:

I learned these 4 stages many years ago and agree.

But the last stage, unconscious competence, isn't always the stage one can be in for certain areas.

Example: Lets say you had a major heart attack and got carted into the emergency room of a hospital.

You wouldn't know what was going on because of the sedation to slice your chest open and get to the heart and arteries.

Would you want a Dr. who had done 1,000 open heart surgeries telling jokes or moving to the beat of some rock music while working on you by unconscious competence or a Dr. with the same number of surgeries 100% focused on each cut consciously because a 1mm miscue could be the difference between life and death?

Lets face it, missing a shot in pool doesn't mean diddly squat in the whole scheme of things and it's forgotten unless playing for a good deal of money or not to let the team down in league play.

Can you remember how many shots you missed yesterday while on the table?

Does it even matter? You probably were playing unconsciously if you can't remember even though the misses were high.

Concentration Rules....

SpiderWebComm said:

REPOST:
I learned these 4 stages many years ago and agree.
But the last stage, unconscious competence, isn't always the stage one can be in for certain areas.
Example: Lets say you had a major heart attack and got carted into the emergency room of a hospital.
You wouldn't know what was going on because of the sedation to slice your chest open and get to the heart and arteries.
Would you want a Dr. who had done 1,000 open heart surgeries telling jokes or moving to the beat of some rock music while working on you by unconscious competence or a Dr. with the same number of surgeries 100% focused on each cut consciously because a 1mm miscue could be the difference between life and death?
Lets face it, missing a shot in pool doesn't mean diddly squat in the whole scheme of things and it's forgotten unless playing for a good deal of money or not to let the team down in league play.
Can you remember how many shots you missed yesterday while on the table?
Does it even matter? You probably were playing unconsciously if you can't remember even though the misses were high.

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SpiderMan...you're going to blow the minds(?) of the "feel" shooters with this advanced theoretical thinking.
It makes sense to me...I'll take the doctor (ESPECIALLY a dentist) who is concentrating on what they're doing and not shake dancing to Beyonce while they're poking around on my mouth.
Regards,:thumbup:
P.L.

If you understand the concept of proprioception, everyone plays by feel....

Good thread topic, Larry. These are the stages of learning.

duckie said:

If you understand the concept of proprioception, everyone plays by feel....

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Yes. Good point.

I know this is useless post, but.......

My game went up drastically when I started just concentrating bout my game, how I determined where the CB needs to be, how to use my stroke and the variety of stances used in shooting and stopped caring or worrying or even being concerned how others played.

duckie said:

I know this is useless post, but.......

My game went up drastically when I started just concentrating bout my game, how I determined where the CB needs to be, how to use my stroke and the variety of stances used in shooting and stopped caring or worrying or even being concerned how others played.

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Are you saying that you are actually paying more attention to your own game than your opponent's game, and this simple change has made a drastic difference in your play? Sounds fishy to me.

Lol. Just kidding. Good post.

Another good thing that'll give anyone's game a boost is to quit being a nit. When you make a mistake, don't explain what went wrong, don't make any excuses for it. Just move on. If you're playing with players of your caliber or better, they'll appreciate this, because trust me, they already know what you were trying to do -- no need to explain it. If you're playing with players who don't play as well as you play, shaking off a missed shot or a mistake indicates that it doesn't bother you one bit, as if it's such a fluke that it deserves no attention, and that can be intimidating for any opponent.

BC21 said:

Are you saying that you are actually paying more attention to your own game than your opponent's game, and this simple change has made a drastic difference in your play? Sounds fishy to me.

Lol. Just kidding. Good post.

Another good thing that'll give anyone's game a boost is to quit being a nit. When you make a mistake, don't explain what went wrong, don't make any excuses for it. Just move on. If you're playing with players of your caliber or better, they'll appreciate this, because trust me, they already know what you were trying to do -- no need to explain it. If you're playing with players who don't play as well as you play, shaking off a missed shot or a mistake indicates that it doesn't bother you one bit, as if it's such a fluke that it deserves no attention, and that can be intimidating for any opponent.

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Funny bout not being a nit....making excuses.....

I was playing a guy once that started doing this......

I told him this.........the balls went exactly where you put them.....the balls never lie.......

duckie said:

Funny bout not being a nit....making excuses.....

I was playing a guy once that started doing this......

I told him this.........the balls went exactly where you put them.....the balls never lie.......

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True. I like when a player says they got a "bad roll", as if it was unforeseeable. Sometimes a bad roll is just that, an unpredictable roll, a weird fluke. But, most of the time, bad rolls are just lying there waiting to happen, and the player doesn't see it or dismisses the likelihood of it.

There is this one table I play a lot on. It has this characteristic of the CB rolling off with a certain pocket speed on a long shot that is close to the long rail into a corner pocket.

It took me awhile to stop blaming the table for that roll. I realized that since I knew about it, knew what pocket speed it occurred at.....so it was my own damn fault for missing not the table.

bbb said:

I apologize for neglecting my own thread
Life gets in the way
Spidey
I know people who work in operating rooms and it is not uncommon to have music playing and a conversation while the operation is going on
When the cardiac surgeon is tying a knot
He is not thinking about this suture goes over this one then around etc
He can tie knots without having to think about it
based on the number of times he has done it

I'm well aware that surgeons have music going while doing surgery.
It could be hard rock, classical, or other types. A very close friend who is a surgeon told me what goes on in there. But it isn't all surgeons who want music blasting. I haven't ever been on an operating table getting sliced open but I wouldn't want to subconsciously be having something beating inside my head and body that I hate. There are certain types of music that make my blood pressure go up when I'm awake and healthy that I can't stand.
But
When learning how he had to go step by step
After you have your visual and know what you need to do
And go down to shoot
I assume you don’t think about ...is my V in the right place.....remember to go to center cue ball ....etc
Or remember straight back stroke ..pause..straight follow thru ...etc
It’s automatic / internalized now because of thousands of reps
I think everyone’s best shooting comes when they let their muscle memory (unconscious competence)work for them and don’t let their brain get in the way
It’s not to say not to focus/ concentrate
Jmho
Icbw

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I already stated that nothing should be going on inside the head when it comes to the physical process of stroking the cue with positions or any other stuff. I only referred to the visual linking of the CB and OB. Once learned, like Stan has it down pat or Tyler Styer, (I won't go through a list) it IS very fast with little thought. What makes you think it isn't or any different from another learned way of aiming to match CB/OB impact?

Lets look at the last two stages:

Conscious Competence – you know, as long as you practice consciously. This is the stage when you have discovered how to improve, the specific changes you need to make, and you practice them consciously.

Unconscious Competence – you know, without even thinking about it. This is the stage when you have practiced something so much that it became automatic and you now do it naturally.

How many NON CTE USERS are in this state when it comes to CTE and they're here telling everyone what goes on with it or users when they don't have a clue? They're so far from CONSCIOUIS COMPETENCE AND UNCONSCIOUS COMPETENCE it's like the distance from Earth to Pluto.

Here's where they are with CTE (but not what they do know and use):

Unconscious Incompetence – you don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know. This is the stage when you are not aware of your flaws or specific areas where you can improve.

Which is why the aiming forum is, has been, and always will be a cesspool with UNCONSCIOUS INCOMPETENT individuals allowed to romp wild while doing and saying as they wish about CTE for the last 22 years! How many 10-20 minute videos do you think the every day knockers could make about CTE and have it 100% correct in every way? How about 50%? They're more than welcome to do them and post on YouTube. Do you think it will ever happen or just continue to be worthless, endless, incorrect negative claims?

Do you agree with that summation, Larry?

bbb said:

spidey
whether i agree or not doesnt matter
this thread had nothing to do about cte vs the non believers
yet your response went there
i have stated years ago and many times that both sides should leave each other alone

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This is a very interesting thread, Larry! Thanks for posting it.

bbb said:

for completeness this was also in the article
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If you look at human learning through this model, you can realize that all human failure in learning is triggered by certain personal or process flaws which make us get stuck at one of the first 3 stages:

People who get stuck in stage 1 don’t even think about where they can improve, are not very self-aware or they are too proud to see their flaws.
People who get stuck in stage 2 know what they can improve but don’t decide to do anything about it, they try to figure everything our by themselves or they use the wrong ideas and methods to improve.
People who get stuck in stage 3 don’t act sufficiently and consistently enough, they don’t plan their practice, they get distracted and they procrastinate.
Look at this model of learning and think about the stages where you tend to get stuck. We all tend to have at least one which is our sticking point. Becoming more aware of this and working on perfecting your learning process is one of the best ways you can use you time and energy.

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I like this. I believe stages 2 and 3 are very common for most people, from aspiring musicians to golfers to pool players. A lot of it is ego, where we just don't want to admit that we need help.

I think the difference between stage 1 people and stage 2 and 3 people is that stage 1 people don't share the same passion, the same drive/desire to be better than anyone else at anything. They are content.

Stage 2 people have had a taste of what it feels like to be viewed or labeled "good" at something. And many times at this stage it's easy to sit back and play it safe. If you're being praised for how well you perform, for being the "best in the class" or whatever, there could be a tendency to not press your luck. I mean, you might decide not to try anything new, harder, more complicated, or more challenging. You'll stick to what you're already doing because you don't want others to see you doing something you're not good at doing. So you stay where you are, stage 2, never expanding your horizons, all due to the fear of not looking like the best anymore. Unfortunately, others pass you up and move into stage 3, leaving you you behind, where you are still the best at that level.

Stage 3 people, unless they're professionals at their skill, have excelled beyond stage 2 but there's often too much on their plates to excell beyond stage 3. A job, wife, kids, bills, and everything else life throws at you. It's hard to balance all of these things, and at the same time, with everything pressing on you, trying to find time to keep up the required amount of practice and dedication needed to escape stage 3 seems hopeless.

I can honestly say I've been stuck in all of these stages at one time or another in almost everything I've ever learned or tried to master. I think a lot of us can say that.